GG vs Japan AND the mag controversy

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dmstarr

New member
Couple of questions rattling around in my skull:

I know the gassers have a "euro" feel, but borrow heavily form japanese technology. So how would an '07 EC 250 handle compared to ...say...an '07 KX250?

Also, I've noticed a serious dearth of GG coverage in any mags. Is that related to the distribution issues? I'd love to get DB and DR's take on a KTM/GG 250/300 shootout.

thanks!
 
Is that good or bad? ;)

I understand that the YZ250 handles nicely, though stiff due to its role as an MXer.

I suppose a fair test would compare a stock YZ and a trail-prepped YZ (as we sometimes fine out here, even with an 18" wheel), while noting the extra expense it takes to soften up the MXer for rocks and roots.

That kind of comparision is unlikely to see the light of day. Very few editors want to put that much effort into a story. I was surprised a few months ago when one mag (MotoCross Action) actually took the time to swap out all of the shock springs on a stable of '07 KTMS (the 450 got a stiffer aftermarket spring, and the 250 got the 450 spring; 200 got the 250 spring, etc), and then adjusted the clickers.

Rick
 
Note, this was a 04 YZ250 with the engine done up for woods (flywheel weight, porting, FMF gnarly pipe) and an IMS tank on it. The suspension was stock and it also had a 19" rear wheel. The suspension was stiffer than the stock stuff on my 07 EC250, but I just stiffened up my 07 so it's now close to the same as my 01 200 which is very similar to the stock YZ stuff, only it's a little plusher on rocks and roots.

So yeah, the 'Euro' feel is complete BS. Ride one and make your own opinion, because the mags are full of s#$t in my opinion.
 
dmstarr said:
I know the gassers have a "euro" feel, but borrow heavily form japanese technology. So how would an '07 EC 250 handle compared to ...say...an '07 KX250?

Also, I've noticed a serious dearth of GG coverage in any mags. Is that related to the distribution issues? I'd love to get DB and DR's take on a KTM/GG 250/300 shootout.

thanks!
Click to expand...

The shootouts only exist because to many riders think that one bike is the best when that is simply NOT TRUE. Many times over the years especially at the end or beginning of a test the editor will say that all of the bikes in the test were so close that any bike would be good for any rider with the only deciding factor being which bike fits that particular rider better and they are going to have to nit-pick to try to tell a difference. But, since most riders don't understand that and demand to know which bike is better, they will buy the mag that has the test and that mag will sell over the others, so, all mags have shootouts so they will sell. And to prove that, if you notice over the years different mags will have different winners and even different lineups of there comparison from first to last. Sometimes you even see a shootout winner and an ad for that bike in the same mag!! Form your own opinions on that one. Luckily, we live in a time were most all bikes are of equal performance and reliability (unlike the old days when a beginner or novice could easily tell a foul machine from a well built one). It bugs me knowing how many riders jump on there friends bikes who's suspension isn't set up for them (let alone the owner) and get off of it saying it doesn't handle good and slam the product from then on. Or even say it doesn't have enough power for them when they can't even bring out the most of a 125 2 stroke.
Those shootouts aren't helping anybody, IMO, test each bike individually with no mention of any other bike and note it's characteristics, then choose which bike might fit your use. I know it's tough riding every bike that someone would be interested in and some say that the mag tests are the only info they can get but, just realizing that 99% of us aren't going to bring out the full potential of these bikes should be good enough to know to not read those tests. I still haven't ridden a 450 that feels better or makes my '05 feel outdated.
Sorry for the rant, but everyone on here seems pretty level headed and knows what they want out of a dirt bike and I would hate to see them start to get caught up in mag tests. That's just my opinion, some may disagree and that's OK...:)
 
Metalefty said:
The shootouts only exist because to many riders think that one bike is the best when that is simply NOT TRUE...Sorry for the rant, but everyone on here seems pretty level headed and knows what they want out of a dirt bike and I would hate to see them start to get caught up in mag tests.
Click to expand...
Good points. But at least SOME coverage of GG would be nice. Which brings me back to my original question: is it just because GG won't throw a free bike at DR/DB? Either way, I'm eager to test a couple of Gassers once I'm back in the saddle. I've always ridden KXs, but with Kawi abandoning the true storke, I want to reward the companies commited to 2T R&D. I cannot go orange.
 
dmstarr said:
Good points. But at least SOME coverage of GG would be nice. Which brings me back to my original question: is it just because GG won't throw a free bike at DR/DB? Either way, I'm eager to test a couple of Gassers once I'm back in the saddle. I've always ridden KXs, but with Kawi abandoning the true storke, I want to reward the companies commited to 2T R&D. I cannot go orange.
Click to expand...

If an orange bike is what fits what your looking for than why not buy it, isn't that what it's all about. If you don't want to go orange because everybody else has one...who cares...it fits you. I chose my bike because it worked for me, I've gotten some flack from brand loyal riders but I know that they could probably be happier on some other bike if they just would have opened there minds a little and didn't worry about fitting in. Besides, when they see how much I enjoy my bike, they don't say anything anymore, especially the ones following...hehe.
 
Do what I do, buy a 1 or 2 year old bike every other year. After a few bikes, you then know what you are looking for. It would have been awesome to have picked this GasGas first.

YZ250's work real well in the woods after they are set up. Hell I rode a bone stock brand new 06 leftover a month ago in the woods and it felt really nice. Even the suspension worked good. I was surprised at that, but it did.

Dirt Rider had an article a few issues back about an Six Days Edition EC250 that Derek Steahly rode in the ISDE in New Zealand. I read it again the other night sittin' on the pot.

Also Dirt Rider did a 300 vs. 300 KTM/GasGas test a year ago or so. You can find it on their website in the archives. Guess what, the GasGas won.

I prefer not to tell anyone about how good the GasGas is in the woods. It gives me an edge. Secret stuff you know.
 
What issue of DR has the EC250 Six Days edition test? I'd be interested to see what the 'experts' have to say about my bike.
 
By "Euro" feel do you mean the classic definition of slow handling and super stable, like an old Husky?

You heard dead wrong. The bike feels like a Japaneese MXer with a couple extra lbs. and a "cost is no option" woods setup, including a 6-speed. It steers very quick but also has good stability.

I don't even read the big CA based mags anymore. Not worth the paper there printed on for an objective unbiased bike test.
 
More articles from 2005.

If you're going to buy a 3-year old bike, go with Gas Gas, hands down. But I'm buying new next summer.

Our problem is we know that KTMs from '04/'05 are not the same as from '07/'08. KTM suspensions are much improved. The jury is out on Gas Gas in the latter half of this decade.

Rick
 
The (my) jury is out because I've test ridden a dozen KTMs over the last year ranging from early 2000s to 2007 (no 2008 yet), and have seen the significant improvement of that line.

If I ever get a chance to ride a Gasser, it will likely be because I fly to Houston to take up a kindly GGRider offer to do so.

All of the articles and forum reviews I have read comparing the GG to KTM date back to 2005 or thereabouts. Lot's of GG riders have posted things like, "I used to have a 2004 EXC and my '06 Gasser is the bomb."

I don't want to compare four-year old bikes. I plan on buying new and need to compare '07-'08 with '07-'08.

My jury will be sequestered until that time. ;)

Rick
 
AZRick,
Pobit did a great review on the GG verse KTM not sure if it was on this site or KTMtalk. He knows his stuff!
Good Luck!
 
Here's the infamous pobit KTM/GG comparion post... :)

I added the paragraph breaks for ease of reading.

http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=230117&hl=Gas Gas&st=75
Since I have owned and raced many KTM's and now the GasGas, I think I can give an informed opinion. Here's how they stack up:

Fit and finish. Everything fits together nice and is easy to work on the KTM. The GasGas isn't bad but uses more odd sizes and zip ties to hold things together. The plastic fits and looks better on the KTM too.

Engines. The GasGas 200 motor is very strong on the bottom and then goes flat on the top. The KTM 200 hits hard in the middle. You ride the GasGas 200 by short shifting and the KTM 200 more like an MX bike. Different flavors. Pick your favorite.

The GasGas 250 motor feels similar to the 06 and newer KTM 250 motor but I would say the KTM motor runs cleaner and stronger than the GasGas motor does. Both motors have good useable bottom end with a nice mid range hit for open areas. The GasGas isn't bad but the KTM has a lower pull and revs just as high with a stronger punch in the mid range. I think the KTM has the perfect blend of power and control for racing off road.

The GasGas 300 is very smooth with little vibration. It is a ride all day and never get tired bike. It's not as good a racer as either 250 or the 200?s because it doesn't rev out as fast. It is a good bike for older racers or trail riders and that's why I ride one. I can ride all day and not get tired. The KTM 300 also makes smooth power but vibrates more. A lot more. It's also fussy about jetting unless you have the head modified to clean up the jetting. Then it runs clean but still vibrates. So in a nut shell, motor wise, either 200 is good depending on what you like, the KTM 250 motor is better than the GasGas 250 and the GasGas 300 motor is better than the KTM 300.

The stock jetting on all the bikes is too rich from the factory so plan on dialing all six of them in to get them to run right. The GasGas 250 and 300 also come with 6 speeds tranny's compared to the KTM's 5 speeds. For racing there is less gaps in the GasGas tranny's. For trail riding it doesn't make much differance.

Chasis wise, in 05 GasGas was way out ahead of KTM in handling and suspension. This was the main reason we switched to GasGas in the first place. Since 05 Ktm has narrowed the gap by first pulling in the steering head and then switching to the smaller fork cartridge in 07. These were huge improvements that improved fork action and turning ability. GasGas has also improved the chasis over this period by lowering the sub frame and switching to the Sach's shock to give the bike better action and stability in chop.

If the KTM forks had the nitrate coating the GasGas forks do they would most likely work as good. The rear linkage shock on the GasGas is very good and is not as fussy about set up as the KTM. For now the GasGas still has the better package both front a rear but the gap isn't as large as it used to be. The GasGas still works better out of the box and revalves are only needed on the GasGas if you want to adjust it for a particular situation. One other thing worth noting is the GasGas shock will not over heat and fade like the PDS will. This is only a problem if your a fast racer otherwise it is a non issue.

Brakes. The GasGas comes with Honda CR brakes front and rear and they are very good. The front is as strong as a KTM but has a better feel and doesn't get mushy like the KTM's do. The rears both work the same and both will over heat if you?re a brake dragger. The rest of the bikes are fairly equal. The seats, controls, levers, wheels and what not are both good but I would say durability goes to the GasGas as they don't seem to have the qwerky issues the KTM's do with leaky gas caps, rear brake piston failure and hydraulic clutch issues after a year of riding.

Last, we have parts availability. This is really a non-issue on either bike. The KTM parts are widely available and every high wear part on the GasGas is a direct cross over to a Japanese bike so if you need brake pads you buy them for a Honda CR250. Knock a foot pegs off or crack the front fender, get one from a Yamaha dealer for a YZ. Anything GasGas specific will be in stock at a dealer like Go Fasters or Road Track & Trail.

JEB did bring up some good points about the dealer network. GasGas in Spain went through a management change last year and the US importer was changed last year too. This made a mess of things by limiting the number of bikes that were imported and there were no dealer incentives to help move bikes so dealers stopped selling the bikes and a few closed shop. As a consumer I hope the new importer and management team can grow the brand here as competition always means better products at a lower price for us consumers. GasGas in Spain and the rest of the world is strong. It is only here in the US that things are screwed up so there is no danger of the GasGas factory closing.

JEB also had a good point about money. Racing is expensive and KTM offers contingency money and financing options where GasGas doesn't. Our GasGas dealer told us that the new importer wants to offer racer contingency and rider support for next year but I have not seen anything yet. KTM is also beating GasGas to the punch with the early release of the 2008's this year.

In my opinion, offering the 250XCW and 300XCW as electric start only is a step backwards. Racers are getting two bad choices. The twin chamber forks on the XC's are going to most likely have large cartridges used on MX bikes and even with revalves will not work as good in the woods as this years open cartridge forks. If you want the good forks for woods, you have to get a bike with the extra weight and cost of the electric start. This may give GasGas a nitch market for those that want good suspension, a 6 speed tranny and no electric start. Dave

This post has been edited by pobit on Jul 23 2007, 11:55 AM
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A buddy of mine just bought a brand new 07 KTM 300. Now keep in mind he has ridden my old 04 300 numerous times.

First words out of his mouth was that he hated the 5 speed tranny and wished he had that one extra gear.

He also spent a bunch of money on the suspension and getting it set up right and is still very unhappy with the results. He did comment that he liked the linked suspension on my GG vs. his pumpkin. Now looking back on it he wished he would have bought the GG. Just wait tell he rides my 07 W.E.C. Bike!:eek:

I know it is a hard decision as most of us here have had to make it at one point or another. The great thing is we keep buying them and stay loyal to the brand. There is somethinng to be said for that.

KTM is better at marketing their brand for sure and have a great "Hard Parts" catalog.

Best of luck on your quest.:)
C'mon down to Houston and you can ride some old and new Gasers because a few of us here have new and old ones.

Boom
 
Thanks for reposting that Pobit summary since I hadn't seen it yet. Overall all I've got to say is "what he said". Very objective and accurate comparison (IMO).

I've ridden a few KTMs over the years and I would definitely buy one of their newer 250 two strokes. I've also had a brief ride on an '07 GG 250 EC and I was extremely impressed at how improved it is over my '01. Virtually everything about it was better than mine except for the seat, which I think sucks on my '01 and is horrible on the '07. GG hasn't made as many changes as KTM has but they've certainly done some things right.

Jon
'01 EC300
 
Oh, crud. You just reminded me.

I did ride a 300 Gas Gas recently -- back in May.

The blue bike on the left. My "Dangerously Modified" KDX is #220.

HPIM3153.jpg


Unfortunately it was a 99 with suspension purposely set up for aggressive MX (maybe SX). Super stiff. Gawd-awful stiff. But it was fun.

The motor was phenominal. It felt like a bigger, new KTM 250SX. With more torque. It was ten minutes of enjoyment. And yes, the seat was like a 2x4 with some Naugahyde to cover it.

Rick
 
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