Local Race

[95jersey]

From this link you can type a riders name in the search bar and then change the drop down menu from event to rider and it will give you all their racing results.
http://results.americanmotorcyclist.com/


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This is an awesome link. I used this to enter one of names of the guys I know has been coming in top 3 at many races in my class and I come to find in the last 4 years he has just shy of 300 points vs. my 19 points. After doing a google search, AMA rules state that a C rider will be promoted to B class when 50 points have been accumulated by the rider, unless this is their first year.

So I can only assume that unless you proactively ask to be promoted, no one checks your points and the cycle continues. I know I sound like a little whining b*tch, so I will stop here and just focus on improving my skills regardless of class standings.

 

[Rod Overstreet]

This is an awesome link. I used this to enter one of names of the guys I know has been coming in top 3 at many races in my class and I come to find in the last 4 years he has just shy of 300 points vs. my 19 points. After doing a google search, AMA rules state that a C rider will be promoted to B class when 50 points have been accumulated by the rider, unless this is their first year.

So I can only assume that unless you proactively ask to be promoted, no one checks your points and the cycle continues. I know I sound like a little whining b*tch, so I will stop here and just focus on improving my skills regardless of class standings.

To play Devils Advocate...There is some argument in which some riders simply never acquire the skills needed to compete in B class. For whatever reasons, some folks remain "Forever C" in skill.

That being said, is it right to force them to B, where they struggle to even stay in the lower 10% of their class, then they quit racing all together?

Food for thought...and discussion of course.

 

[gasgasxc]

To play Devils Advocate...There is some argument in which some riders simply never acquire the skills needed to compete in B class. For whatever reasons, some folks remain "Forever C" in skill.

That being said, is it right to force them to B, where they struggle to even stay in the lower 10% of their class, then they quit racing all together?

Food for thought...and discussion of course.

Huh??
They can spend their whole amateur racing career in the C class.
Nobody is going to force them to move up unless they start scoring points and finishing in
The top five consistently or accrue enough points and over a given period of time.
If it took a rider 10-15 years to accumulate those points over many events that would be taken into consideration and reviewed by request.
Its really up to the promoter and the local club and the racing association with jurisdiction.
No AMA police enforcers types out there enforcing strict rule compliance in Amateur racing D-C and B classes.Which we do not need.

At the Pro and AA level and A in AMA nationals.
You might get some of that.

Think "t-ball-little league" vs Major Leagues pro Minor Leagues.

As far as B riders riding in National C classes.
And I'm not sure if that class exists.
But it is common for riders to ride in a lower class at National events compared to the local racing series you compete.
You may be a bigger fish in your local series but at the National level you have mostly bigger fish.That's basic.

Also the old rule is "once an expert always an expert"
Even if you haven't raced for years.If you raced the A class and above in your previous racing life then you are expected to compete at that level.
Considerations can be made but it's highly frowned on.
For many reasons.

These are the kind of general guidelines that everyone should follow.
The biggest issues come when C and B riders take it too seriously..

 

[95jersey]

To play Devils Advocate...There is some argument in which some riders simply never acquire the skills needed to compete in B class. For whatever reasons, some folks remain "Forever C" in skill.

That being said, is it right to force them to B, where they struggle to even stay in the lower 10% of their class, then they quit racing all together?

Food for thought...and discussion of course.

Agree whole heartedly. In my research I actually found a rule that a rider can not be forced to go from B to A if the rider does not want to. In that case I agree, as A is a pretty darn serious class. But to mass 300 points when you should be moved at 50? I could see waiting up to 75, 100 even 125, but 300??

I use to road race cars for years before I did hare scrambles. I also was an instructor in several organizations for our driving school events. We had 4 classes, depending on event size, maybe 5. All this was based on individual skill as well as accumulated track time. We kept a log for every driver. If a driver did not meet criteria they would not advance, but we often found it more dangerous to keep skilled riders with novices, as the novices would not be used to the aggressive nature of the advanced drivers and could cause incidents.

Beginner (1-2 years experience or about 6-9 events)
Intermediate A (2-3 years experience or about 8- 15 events)
Intermediate B (3-4 years experience or 12-18 events)
Advanced (4+ years and 17+ events)
Instructor (5+ years after taking training course and passing test)

I routinely graded drivers and recommended advancements (or not). It just seems there is no such inspection when it comes to the local AMA dirt bike events. Of course, we did not have 600+ entries.

 

[memphis2857]

To play Devils Advocate...There is some argument in which some riders simply never acquire the skills needed to compete in B class. For whatever reasons, some folks remain "Forever C" in skill.



That being said, is it right to force them to B, where they struggle to even stay in the lower 10% of their class, then they quit racing all together?



Food for thought...and discussion of course.

There certainly are guys that are "forever C" but those guys are no threat to anyone other than the guys trying to lap them. Most rules for C advancement go something like Win a race and you move up next season or finish top 3 in points and you move up. This seems fair to me. And the B guys get bumped to A after winning the points or winning 3 races.

Like I said earlier too. It's up to the riders to police themselves at their series within their class. As GasGasXC said we don't really need or want the AMA police. It can be done by the riders anonymously.


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[TheLetterJ]

I typed out a long response, and then my phone dumped it!

Short story:

I'm not a racer. I've "pie plated" an event here and there just for fun. The one and only time I officially entered a race (just this year) I finished AHEAD OF EVERY SINGLE C AND B RIDER and got my ass handed to me by the AA guys but that doesn't automatically mean I should be riding in A.

I was pretty confident that I'd finish well into the B pack, but being my first time out, I started at the bottom/ C class. I've trail ridden with plenty of self proclaimed A riders that are fast through a section here or there, but ultimately would be mid C pack finishers, what if they were allowed to enter in A like they thought they should?

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't know where you're at until you actually run against some real competition. I'd be willing to bet that 1/2 the field is just there for the fun of it and are not interested in working their way up. It's just a fast paced/ organized trail ride to them. Should they be forced to move up? I don't think so, that might take the fun out of it for those guys, and they might just stop showing up. If that happens, turnouts become smaller, clubs start loosing money, events are harder to put on. As much as I'd like to work my way up through the points system and officially be an A rider, I'm just not that committed to chasing the points, so my 1 finish didn't mess up anybody's season.

 

[Rod Overstreet]

There certainly are guys that are "forever C" but those guys are no threat to anyone other than the guys trying to lap them. Most rules for C advancement go something like Win a race and you move up next season or finish top 3 in points and you move up. This seems fair to me. And the B guys get bumped to A after winning the points or winning 3 races.

Like I said earlier too. It's up to the riders to police themselves at their series within their class. As GasGasXC said we don't really need or want the AMA police. It can be done by the riders anonymously.


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Actually...I've seen several NON-AMA series allow a rider to remain forever C unless they won and event then it was automatic advancement. Saw another that only bumped you if you put in 3 consecutive scores that put you in trophy position in B class. Easy to beat the rules there. Saw another series...you were allowed to ride C one year, and that was it. It didn't matter if you won every event, or finished dead last...you got bumped.

I remember one guy in SE&TRA that rode 200C, then VET C, and finally went from C to A after several protests were filed. That went on for 10 years. Had the AMA not gotten involved, he would still be in C class

Memphis, you should know better than anyone....the former KORHS series (2nd owner) was a mess. We had guys riding AA in the home state series, but when the GNCC came to town...suddenly there were all VET B riders, and got away with it. Same goes for you. You're moving up to B this year. If you put in 3 races back to back, with scores that would have trophied you in A class, are you going to advance yourself or stay in the lower class? At what point, do you move to A?

Lastly...when you have this kind of wash going on...the AMA should be involved. The rule book was written for a reason.

 

[95jersey]

First I am getting the impression from some folks that C&B riders because they are in the "tee-ball" class don't matter or are meaningless compared to the pros. This is dead wrong. Without the C&B classes there are NO EVENTS. From a cursory look at the numbers, C&B riders make up 80% of the entries in any given local off-road race. While we all love the pro's and they make the headlines, without the mass amounts of C&B riders the events would be financially impossible. I am in a local club responsible for putting on these events and see the financials first hand. The C guys make the events possible, their entries allow us to pay insurance companies, land owners and state regulators. It's the pro's that do not matter.

Another comments I saw was, "most rules for C advancement go something like Win a race and you move up next season or finish top 3 in points and you move up", that seems fair." . I agree with your logic, but this is not happening. The person I spoke about had 4 wins and 1/2 dozen top 5 finishes and is still in C class over several years. The frustration is not for the new guy who is really fast and trying to find his rightful place in the class system, but the guy who for the 4th year is cleaning house and masses 300 points.

So you say that it will disenfranchise riders if they are forced to go up and don't succeed, we'll I argue that it will disenfranchises novices racers (the growth of the sport) from wanting to continue to race.

Me, I do it for fun, but as someone with race organizational experience, the whole system is a mess compared to how we handled it on the pavement side of things.

 

[12Bravo]

First I am getting the impression from some folks that C&B riders because they are in the "tee-ball" class don't matter or are meaningless compared to the pros. This is dead wrong. Without the C&B classes there are NO EVENTS. From a cursory look at the numbers, C&B riders make up 80% of the entries in any given local off-road race. While we all love the pro's and they make the headlines, without the mass amounts of C&B riders the events would be financially impossible. I am in a local club responsible for putting on these events and see the financials first hand. The C guys make the events possible, their entries allow us to pay insurance companies, land owners and state regulators. It's the pro's that do not matter.

Another comments I saw was, "most rules for C advancement go something like Win a race and you move up next season or finish top 3 in points and you move up", that seems fair." . I agree with your logic, but this is not happening. The person I spoke about had 4 wins and 1/2 dozen top 5 finishes and is still in C class over several years. The frustration is not for the new guy who is really fast and trying to find his rightful place in the class system, but the guy who for the 4th year is cleaning house and masses 300 points.

So you say that it will disenfranchise riders if they are forced to go up and don't succeed, we'll I argue that it will disenfranchises novices racers (the growth of the sport) from wanting to continue to race.

Me, I do it for fun, but as someone with race organizational experience, the whole system is a mess compared to how we handled it on the pavement side of things.

This is the best explanation I have read. Makes perfect sense!

While I do not have personal experience in Dirt bike racing I do have some experience in RC racing and have seen first hand sandbagging to the hills. I can only imagine it happens much of the same way it does in RC......"Hey I'm in the lead, Oh I better hit a wall so I don't get to far ahead and get moved up a class" Kind of like in dirt, ooppss I fell over now I can be passed and stay where I am. Just an example of the top of my head.

 

[gasgasxc]

T

I typed out a long response, and then my phone dumped it!

Short story:

I'm not a racer. I've "pie plated" an event here and there just for fun. The one and only time I officially entered a race (just this year) I finished AHEAD OF EVERY SINGLE C AND B RIDER and got my ass handed to me by the AA guys but that doesn't automatically mean I should be riding in A.

I was pretty confident that I'd finish well into the B pack, but being my first time out, I started at the bottom/ C class. I've trail ridden with plenty of self proclaimed A riders that are fast through a section here or there, but ultimately would be mid C pack finishers, what if they were allowed to enter in A like they thought they should?

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't know where you're at until you actually run against some real competition. I'd be willing to bet that 1/2 the field is just there for the fun of it and are not interested in working their way up. It's just a fast paced/ organized trail ride to them. Should they be forced to move up? I don't think so, that might take the fun out of it for those guys, and they might just stop showing up. If that happens, turnouts become smaller, clubs start loosing money, events are harder to put on. As much as I'd like to work my way up through the points system and officially be an A rider, I'm just not that committed to chasing the points, so my 1 finish didn't mess up anybody's season.

This brings up another excellent point.
At that level their are more guys then not who do not race that can get off the couch load up a clapped out to you bike and absolutely wax your ass.
Another reason not to take it too seriously at that level.
More riders then not will find themselves riding mid packish in a class with little hope to win"depending on who showed up to race that day".And that's the real crux of it.
Because they are too fast for the class below them and not fast enough to finish at the front of the class they are in.
If you have 200 racers to divide into 8 amateur classes that's how it will be.
Especially in the bigger am. classes.

You could make an argument that if a guy can consistently ride in the top 10 in a larger am.class and compete mid pack and above in a higher class relative to the size of his class then he should move up.
Well where does that end?
Kinda ends at the A class, mostly.
Now what do you have?

It's a mess man.And always will be.
Focus on overall finishes.Ride a class above if in doubt.
Have fun.And absolutely own the course.
Nobody can take that away from you.

 

[gasgasxc]

95 Jersey.

I am not saying that at all.
I'm saying the seriousness of the situation and the enforcing policies and the like should be relative to the level of competition.

Think of the parents that make big deals about crap at little league games.Coaches yelling and the like.Way to serious.Bordering on nuts.

Also very hard to define the competition at the D, C and B levels.
It's extremely interpretive.
Too many variables.Too many entries.
We can't make a class for everybody.
Only so many plates at the table.
This is very basic.

 

[Rod Overstreet]

First I am getting the impression from some folks that C&B riders because they are in the "tee-ball" class don't matter or are meaningless compared to the pros. This is dead wrong. Without the C&B classes there are NO EVENTS. From a cursory look at the numbers, C&B riders make up 80% of the entries in any given local off-road race. While we all love the pro's and they make the headlines, without the mass amounts of C&B riders the events would be financially impossible. I am in a local club responsible for putting on these events and see the financials first hand. The C guys make the events possible, their entries allow us to pay insurance companies, land owners and state regulators. It's the pro's that do not matter.

Another comments I saw was, "most rules for C advancement go something like Win a race and you move up next season or finish top 3 in points and you move up", that seems fair." . I agree with your logic, but this is not happening. The person I spoke about had 4 wins and 1/2 dozen top 5 finishes and is still in C class over several years. The frustration is not for the new guy who is really fast and trying to find his rightful place in the class system, but the guy who for the 4th year is cleaning house and masses 300 points.

So you say that it will disenfranchise riders if they are forced to go up and don't succeed, we'll I argue that it will disenfranchises novices racers (the growth of the sport) from wanting to continue to race.

Me, I do it for fun, but as someone with race organizational experience, the whole system is a mess compared to how we handled it on the pavement side of things.

I was hoping to pull up the SE&TRA points / advancement method for your consideration but their website apparently is down. Anyway...where guys took advantage of the system, was jumping from class to class, because the percentages were ALL different, from class to class. In other words a guy riding displacement, accumulated a percentage that advanced to him B or A, guess what? He would ride an "age class" next season, but in the lower class. So...we had guys bouncing around EVERYWHERE. If I can get on the site later, I'll see if I can find that formula.

BTW...Good conversation here on this thread. Thanks!

 

[gasgasxc]

Pros and AA guys are not something I am evaluating on the sand bagging issues.
That is a separate deal.

Expert=A class.
Amateur=B, C and D classes.

Amateurs= largest pain in the ass group to deal with when it comes to these issues.
Ride your way out of the Amateur class and you are golden.
If you can't, won't, could care less too.
Then give yourself and everybody else a break.

 

[Rod Overstreet]

Pros and AA guys are not something I am evaluating on the sand bagging issues.
That is a separate deal.

Expert=A class.
Amateur=B, C and D classes.

Amateurs= largest pain in the ass group to deal with when it comes to these issues.
Ride your way out of the Amateur class and you are golden.
If you can't, won't, could care less too.
Then give yourself and everybody else a break.

So tell us something about your racing history....

 

[12Bravo]

so tell us something about your racing history....

Agreed, but I couldn't say anything since I'm the new guy with zero "Dirt Bike" racing experience.

 

[gasgasxc]

I have never raced an event in my life.
Shud be fairly obvious by my posts??

I've seen some of your posts.
You are a name dropper.
Which is cool.
I am not.I'm not here to beat my chest.

I'm here to provide some insight on the issue mainly for the many visitors to this page that are not forum members.

If you disagree with the specifics and logistics of any of my views on the subject.
Then break it down.

The topic here.Is not my racing experience..

 

[95jersey]

95 Jersey.

I am not saying that at all.
I'm saying the seriousness of the situation and the enforcing policies and the like should be relative to the level of competition.

Think of the parents that make big deals about crap at little league games.Coaches yelling and the like.Way to serious.Bordering on nuts.

Also very hard to define the competition at the D, C and B levels.
It's extremely interpretive.
Too many variables.Too many entries.
We can't make a class for everybody.
Only so many plates at the table.
This is very basic.

I am a business man, so I tend to look at things in that way, and the way the lower classes are currently run is bad business, and local organizers wonder why the sport is on life support. Please understand my rant is not because I am taking it serious (at least not for myself). If 80%+ of my revenue came from little league, then you bet I'd be on top of it, making those folks feel like priority. Don't confuse the glamour of pro racing, with the grassroots effort that keeps our sport alive.

In the real world NFL pro ball brings more money to the table than any amateur series an thus takes priority. In the dirt bike world, the amateur classes bring more to the table than the pros. The pros exists because of the amateur riders and the products they buy. So why not cater to them more? Make the focus on them?

Just debating for conversation sake. at this point...

 

[Rod Overstreet]

I have never raced an event in my life.
Shud be fairly obvious by my posts??

I've seen some of your posts.
You are a name dropper.
Which is cool.
I am not.I'm not here to beat my chest.

I'm here to provide some insight on the issue mainly for the many visitors to this page that are not forum members.

If you disagree with the specifics and logistics of any of my views on the subject.
Then break it down.

The topic here.Is not my racing experience..

Thanks

 

[12Bravo]

I have never raced an event in my life.
Shud be fairly obvious by my posts??

I've seen some of your posts.
You are a name dropper.
Which is cool.
I am not.I'm not here to beat my chest.

I'm here to provide some insight on the issue mainly for the many visitors to this page that are not forum members.

If you disagree with the specifics and logistics of any of my views on the subject.
Then break it down.

The topic here.Is not my racing experience..

You referring to me or Rod?

 

[memphis2857]

Actually...I've seen several NON-AMA series allow a rider to remain forever C unless they won and event then it was automatic advancement. Saw another that only bumped you if you put in 3 consecutive scores that put you in trophy position in B class. Easy to beat the rules there. Saw another series...you were allowed to ride C one year, and that was it. It didn't matter if you won every event, or finished dead last...you got bumped.



I remember one guy in SE&TRA that rode 200C, then VET C, and finally went from C to A after several protests were filed. That went on for 10 years. Had the AMA not gotten involved, he would still be in C class



Memphis, you should know better than anyone....the former KORHS series (2nd owner) was a mess. We had guys riding AA in the home state series, but when the GNCC came to town...suddenly there were all VET B riders, and got away with it. Same goes for you. You're moving up to B this year. If you put in 3 races back to back, with scores that would have trophied you in A class, are you going to advance yourself or stay in the lower class? At what point, do you move to A?



Lastly...when you have this kind of wash going on...the AMA should be involved. The rule book was written for a reason.

I move to A when I meet the criteria stated in the rules of my series. Which in my case would be:
A" Class
a. All "B" Class Champions and "B" riders ranked second or third in the previous year's IXCR who won at least three races.
b. All riders that have an "A" ranking in any other off-road series. c. Exception section 5 guidelines.

So if I win the Vet B championship in 2016 I move to A. If I finish in 2nd or 3rd and win 3 races or more I move to A. Now this year an interesting scenario came about that seems a little unfair. There was a 3 way tie for 1st. Place in the Vet B class this year. None of the 3 won 3 races. So the only guy to move up is the winner. The only reason he won is because he had the highest finish at the last race. Now that being said I know all three of these guys and 2 are going to A and the other (2nd place guy) is sliding over to Senior B. So technically he is still in B but he is moving to an "easier" class. Lol

As for me I will continue to move up when I am suppose to. I could ride Vet A next year and finish in the top 10 every race but why would I do that when I can ride B and be competitive.

Gosh I had never put this much thought into all this! I just go out there and ride my hardest and then look at my lap times at the end of the race to make sure I didn't fall off as the race went on. Then I go look at my overall and see where I stack up. This was my first year racing and I used the C class as a starting point. My riding came a long way this year and now it's time to move up. The stacks of $5 plaques in my garage mean jack shit compared to the fun I had and the friends I made along the way!

Rod I do agree we need the AMA I was just saying they don't have the manpower to police every race for sandbaggers. If someone in your series/class is doing so then it's on you to point it out to the AMA.


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