Marzocchi setup help - 08' EC250

[GasGasser]

I'm running 7.5w oil at 105mm. Used to run with 110mm but this works better against bottoming.

Where in the compression valve is the bleed shim? Could try removing that one to see how it feels. Need to measure my preload aswell but I doubt it's even close to 7mm. Gotta check it out this weekend.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[nick790]

It's the first shim in the comp stack, it sit's against the piston. If it has a bleed shim, it will be a smaller diameater than the piston, so it does'nt quite cover the holes in the piston. Check out my pic's in this thred, it shows what I thought to be a bleed shim. You can see the patern of the piston on the shim. Also diferent springs have diferent pre load tubes, is it possible that someone may have change the spring in the past and may not have the correct tube in it? I think the lenths are listed in the online manual.

 

[GasGasser]

Ok, I didn't have the time this weekend to check the shim stack but I quicly measured the sag settings and they were the following:

Front:

Static sag: 3.7 cm.
Race sag: 6.3 cm.

Rear:

Statis sag: 3 cm.
Race Sag: 8.8 cm.

Notice that these settings were measured without any gear on, with the gear the rear race sag would be around 95mm. Maybe should loosen it up a bit to about 100mm.

So atleast for the forks the soft feeling doesn't come from too soft springs but do you think the preload is good, judging from the static sag or would it help to increase preload?

 

[Klausen]

Just been reading your thread from the start. Very interesting.
Excuse my bad oxford english.
May be someone can give me some help to adjust (valve Stack) my Shiver 45 2006.
I also read the many other thread to this problem, but no solution for my problem.

The response is very good. But in the sand and on deep rutted corners it feel very "spongy". I can't get a good line in the corner and the front is pulling.
When I have to brake before a corner the fork is dipping to much, when there are also some bumps it got worse.
The bike feels very instable.

I think a need more compression.

Specs.
my weight wo. wear 85kg = 187 lbs
I use Springs 5 N/mm ( I know I can't make a fork harder with harder springs - I will change them against 4,5 N/mm).
I'm running SAE 5 Motul Oil at 100mm
5mm Preload
Basevalve Stack original EC 250
11x0.20
22x0.10
11x0.20
19x0.10
17x0.10
11x0.10
16x0.10
16x0.10
15x0.15
14x0.15
14x0.15
13x0.20
12x0.20

rebound stack original
21x0.10
19x0.10
17x0.10
15x0.10

For more compression I think I have to change the basevalve stack.
Some recommadations?

Klaus from L.E.

 

[nick790]

I'd remove the bleed shim (11x0.20) and maybe double upon the face shim?

Are you getting enough rebound control with that stack and the SEA 5 oil?

 

[moto9]

Is no one addressing the midvalve?
Anyway, here go's
200 lb rider, vet expert level, 08 GG300
I ride single track only, pretty nasty rooted, greasy stuff, lots of logs and elevation changes, No MX or jumping.
When I first road the bike in our trail system, I couldn't get the front tire to grip the roots...everything was a deflection and the rear was skating as well.
I have the bike tracking well now and it's way way plusher.
My speeds have increased quite a bit because I have more confidence dodging trees and pigs.
I can't post anything about the fork valving yet, that is until I go back in for a service...I somehow lost my spec sheet.
But here's what I did to the shock...and my disclaimer is that this is a work in progress, so far I'm really liking it...but that's me, I'm not recomending this set-up, just posting what I did.
Also the shock spring change was too 1 rate heavier than stock, which I thought was a 5.5
I didn't have many shims on hand so I mostly worked with what was in the stacks.
On the forks I used a dia-grinder on the ID of some showa shims to get them to fit...which seemed to work ok.

08 GG ec 300
Sachs shock

valving 5.5-STOCK TO 5.6 SPRING / ADDED A BLADDER KIT / 2.5-W OIL/ NITRO @ 175 PSI

DIA-THICKNESS-QUANT
_________________________________
COMP
stock
44X22(5)
38X15
36X15
42X20
40x20
38x20
34X20
32X20
30X20
28X20
25X20
22X20

comp
new stack
44X20 (4)
38X15
36X15
42X20
40X20
36x20
32x20
28x20
22x20

REBOUND
stock
38X25 (3)
38X30
36X30
34X30
32X30
30X30
28X30
26X30
22X25
18X30

rebound
new
38x25 (3)
38x30
36x30
38x20
34x30
32x30
30x30
28x30
26x30
25x25
22x30
18x30

 

[Klausen]

I'd remove the bleed shim (11x0.20) and maybe double upon the face shim?

so easy?I will try it.
I thought the bleed shim is more importend.
In older Gasgas with Marz 45 there is the face shim 21x0,1.
There bleeds on the edge, or?
What happens when I change the 22x0.1 face shim --> 2 x 21x0,1.

Are you getting enough rebound control with that stack and the SEA 5 oil?

I have not so much experience with this - how can I recognise this.
I also read the post from pobit and he change the stack to more rebound.
I have to order these shims and will try it.

 

[nick790]

OK time for an update.

For those of you in the UK and read TBM, errr yes................that was me!

I had a day with DR Shox suspension tuner, at his test track in Suffolk. ner Rendlesham forrest.
I had a good test, but we only made basic clicker and sag adjustments. But it was good to just ride to test different settings and see how it changed things. It's fair to say, I learnt allot, both about suspension set up and my ridding.

I came away with some things to try as Dr Shox suggested.

1, Changing the oil weight to to 5w oil - tried it, it was sh!t. changed it back before I refitted the forks to the bike, couldn't get anywhere near enough rebound.

2, Oil hight reduce to 140mm air gap - This improved things and got me the full travel of the fork, but still sometimes kicked over logs or rocks.

3, Reduce spring preload spacers - NOW THIS IS THE INTERESTING BIT he said it was ok to run no pre load on the springs. OK, I had 7mm in one leg and 12mm in the other Checked it before, but only found 7mm. The two spacer were different sizes So I turned them both down so I now have 0-1mm preload. And it feels allot better, no deflection or kicking now

Now my rebound setting is in the middle of the adjustments, but my comp is 4 clicks from full soft, not ideal. I've been told by DrShox that my comp shim stack looks to be quite soft. This is what I have.....

1, 22x1.0
2, 12x1.0
3, 20x1.0
4, 12x1.0
5, 17x1.0
6, 16x1.0
7, 14x1.0
8, 13x1.0
9, 12x1.0

Now my question is, if this is a soft stack and i'm near the limit of adjustment, whats restricting my Comp adjustment? This is my only thought.........

In my Comp valve the piston and shim stack is bolted to the housing, in the manual it shows it mounted on a stud retained by a nut?
If you can see in the pic, the shim stack is closely mounted to the housing. Could this be restricting the movement/deflection on the shims?
It's the last thing I can think of!

 

[twowheels]

Nick: I'll have a noodle on the valve stack a little this weekend, but for now I'll agree that the compression stack is retained by a stepped and hollow screw.

The shim stack sits on a 2.25mm high pedestal. By comparison the last KYB set I measured had a 6.0mm pedestal.

The deflection of the shims is negligible as they taper towards the bottom, so the 2.25mm is more than enough clearance.

Happy Easter.

OK time for an update.


In my Comp valve the piston and shim stack is bolted to the housing, in the manual it shows it mounted on a stud retained by a nut?
If you can see in the pic, the shim stack is closely mounted to the housing. Could this be restricting the movement/deflection on the shims?
It's the last thing I can think of!

 

[nick790]

Nick: I'll have a noodle on the valve stack a little this weekend, but for now I'll agree that the compression stack is retained by a stepped and hollow screw.

The shim stack sits on a 2.25mm high pedestal. By comparison the last KYB set I measured had a 6.0mm pedestal.

The deflection of the shims is negligible as they taper towards the bottom, so the 2.25mm is more than enough clearance.

Happy Easter.

Thanks Twowheels
I agree 2.25 would work better, but my shim stack compresses directly to the ally housing, which is about 16mmOD, not sure if you can see that in the pic clearly? What is the diameter of the 2.25mm pedestal that the shim stack sits on?
Thanks for your help, I feel like i'm almost there!!!

Have a good easter

 

[nick790]

Bump..........

 

[twowheels]

Thanks Twowheels
I agree 2.25 would work better, but my shim stack compresses directly to the ally housing, which is about 16mmOD, not sure if you can see that in the pic clearly? What is the diameter of the 2.25mm pedestal that the shim stack sits on?
Thanks for your help, I feel like i'm almost there!!!

Have a good easter

Nick: Sorry, I must have dozed off (the twins are just over a year now, and regular sleep is but a memory).

The 2.25mm post is 7.9mm in diameter. This would be considered the pivot shim for the stack, since the 12mm above it is only 0.20mm thick.

 

[nick790]

Nick: Sorry, I must have dozed off (the twins are just over a year now, and regular sleep is but a memory).

The 2.25mm post is 7.9mm in diameter. This would be considered the pivot shim for the stack, since the 12mm above it is only 0.20mm thick.

Perfect, thanks Twowheels that makes allot of sense.
I'll reinstate that so it all has a bit more room to move.
Should soften it up a bit.

 

[nick790]

Will it do any harm to remove my forks, turn them upside down (invert them) Buzz out my comp valve, make changes, buzz them back in and re-fit?

Didn't know if the oil would need bleeding or it would mess something up?

 

[moto9]

I'm going to be very honest with you....there is little you can do without a
re-valve.
The valving on the marz and sachs stuff is way off base.
I re-valved and re-sprung my stuff and it's worlds better, I still need to stiffen up the H/S rebound a little more but it's close.
Now,
A friend I ride with sent his stuff to Les at LT Racing and was very happy with the results, customer service and cost.
If you can't DIY, pony up the money and send it out....otherwise you'll be wasting your time, become more frustrated and you'll miss out on how good the EC can be with suspension that works!

 

[nick790]

I'm going to be very honest with you....there is little you can do without a
re-valve.
The valving on the marz and sachs stuff is way off base.
I re-valved and re-sprung my stuff and it's worlds better, I still need to stiffen up the H/S rebound a little more but it's close.
Now,
A friend I ride with sent his stuff to Les at LT Racing and was very happy with the results, customer service and cost.
If you can't DIY, pony up the money and send it out....otherwise you'll be wasting your time, become more frustrated and you'll miss out on how good the EC can be with suspension that works!

??????

 

[twowheels]

Nick: Sending your suspension to the guru on the mountain would seem to be out of the question, given that you live half the world away, so maybe we can use the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB to get those 'zokes working to your satisfaction.
Assuming that you know one end of a spanner from another and that you're up for a little bit of a science project, we should be able to do this long-distance. Consider it robotic surgery where the patient is in one place and the supervising surgeon is in another.
Grab your scalpel ... and pm me.

Steve

 

[moto9]

Nick: Sending your suspension to the guru on the mountain would seem to be out of the question, given that you live half the world away, so maybe we can use the power of the WORLD WIDE WEB to get those 'zokes working to your satisfaction.
Assuming that you know one end of a spanner from another and that you're up for a little bit of a science project, we should be able to do this long-distance. Consider it robotic surgery where the patient is in one place and the supervising surgeon is in another.
Grab your scalpel ... and pm me.

Steve

Sorry, I missed your local...OK,,, call Les at LT Racing and see if he'll help you considering you a world away.
Or mabye he'll sell you a build sheet and some shims at a reduced cost.

 

[nick790]

I'm almost there, been messing with my forks for nearly a year now, slowly been making improvements and learning the black art of suspension tuning.

I'm a ex automotive race tech, and now I work in hydraulic engineering, so this has been a fun project, my biggest problem is time to test. I do most my testing twice a month at events, so it's not ideal. But like I say, It's all about fun.

I have two last things I would like to improve on, first is the high speed damping is a little harsh, and second is the my comp adjuster is nearly all the way out.

I'm going to replace the 2.25 pivot shim at the base of the stack, I think (and i'm hoping) that this will improve both of my issues.

 

[moto9]

I'm almost there, been messing with my forks for nearly a year now, slowly been making improvements and learning the black art of suspension tuning.

I'm a ex automotive race tech, and now I work in hydraulic engineering, so this has been a fun project, my biggest problem is time to test. I do most my testing twice a month at events, so it's not ideal. But like I say, It's all about fun.

I have two last things I would like to improve on, first is the high speed damping is a little harsh, and second is the my comp adjuster is nearly all the way out.

I'm going to replace the 2.25 pivot shim at the base of the stack, I think (and i'm hoping) that this will improve both of my issues.

Don't ignore the mid-valve...a lot of magic can be massaged out of it
I set the float at 1.5 mm but also used a light (10) face shim.
And while your at it, think about the rebound stack... I had to stiffen up mine quite a bit to cancel out the pogo effect.
I need to go even stiffer on the fork's H/S reb