Opinion of Changes to US GG line for 2012

[Clay]

I know I'm taking the risk of starting a thread here that could run 50 pages!
For this thread, please don't get bogged down in the details. I want to limit it to the broader model range topic.

For 2011, we have four 250 2T models and five 300 2T models. Of course, the Nambotin is unique and not really pertinent to this discussion.
I am thinking of the following models for the US :
Keep the standard 250/300 with kick start and 45mm Marzocchi fork/Ohlins shock. Price would stay about the same...$7599/7699.
Keep the 250/300 e start with 45mm Marzocchi fork and Ohlins shock. Price would stay the same...$7899/7999
Combine the Six Day (6D) and Race models into one model with the 48mm Marzocchi and Ohlins shock. This bike would be called the Race model and have the components that both models have now. The rad braces, skid plate, Galfer rotors, brake cooler, etc from the 6D and the Race kit from the Race model. This unit would prolly be $1000 higher than the standard model..... $8599/8699.

For 2011, we have a 6D and Race 125 and 200. This combination model means we would only have one of each.

All of this is contingent on the factory being able to deliver this model early (August/September of 2011) and not later like the Race model this year.

What do you think?
Clay

 

[stainlesscycle]

i see no reason to have more than this:
e-start bike
non e-start bike
48mm fork bike with all the good stuff
nambotin

so you have a base model, a e-start base model, and full blown race setup and a bling bike (nambo)

3 models per size (125 and 200 could be just 2 models..) or even just a race model...

i never figured out why gg had so many similar models sold under different names. i would think there's only 2 kinds of customers buying. those that race and those that trail ride. you really only need a trail setup and a race setup. the trail bike could easily be blinged out to race setup. the only big difference would be the front end. i would think that the majority of the base model purchaser would put all the armor stuff on anyways....

 

[Clay]

i see no reason to have more than this:
e-start bike
non e-start bike
48mm fork bike with all the good stuff
nambotin

so you have a base model, a e-start base model, and full blown race setup and a bling bike (nambo)

3 models per size (125 and 200 could be just 2 models..) or even just a race model...

i never figured out why gg had so many similar models sold under different names. i would think there's only 2 kinds of customers buying. those that race and those that trail ride. you really only need a trail setup and a race setup. the trail bike could easily be blinged out to race setup. the only big difference would be the front end. i would think that the majority of the base model purchaser would put all the armor stuff on anyways....

Stainless,
The 6D models are bigger with the European customers than they are here. Currently, a big percentage of our sales are 6D models but that is because I priced it too close to the standard model (didn't know it had all of the bling when I priced it). If the 6D went away but the cool bling was added to the 'new' Race model, then the guys currently buying the 6D would buy the Race. Is that what you are saying, too?
Clay

 

[ScottyR]

I agree that there are way too many models in the GG lineup.

I would go with the following for 2012.

125 - Wouldnt bother importing it unless it is a 150.
200 - Std only as most guys who are buying them are just trail riding and it helps hit a nice price point as an entry level bike.
250/300 Std
250/300 ES
250/300 SixDays - An accesorized std model like the current 6 Days with closed cartridge forks and stiffer valving.

Lose the current Race edition for 2012. No need for both 6 Days and Race. If GG cant build the Race any earlier than Jan/Feb than dont bother at all with it. You lose too many buyers by not having bikes available in the fall.

Nambotin or Cervantes Special Edition - Completely blinged out with TTX suspension, race ignition etc..Very limited #s and priced accordingly. Build it in the current Race bike production schedule so dealers can have them for the spring.

I guess the next question is what is the future of the 250/450Fs? An EC300F based on the Yamaha motor with an Athena kit from the factory would be a pretty cool bike. Unfortunately, I think it would be priced out of the budget for most riders. Personally, I think that everyone is jumping off the big 4 stroke bandwagon and that concentrating on 2Ts is the safest plan.

 

[jeffs2200]

Clay, your plan sounds pretty good to me.

I do have one suggestion though. If you could get GasGas to make a 200 with the esart standard instead of having to order it seperately I think you could sell quite a few. I think it would be a big hit with women riders as well as some older guy's.

My wife currently rides a KTM 200 and loves it except she wishes she had the estart. If you brought in a estart 200 I am sure she would have to have one. The fact that the GG is also a smaller feeling and lower bike helps as well. I ride with some older guys who also love their 200's and have considered a GG200 but would really like the estart.

 

[Skidad]

Very tricky call on this... and I reserve my right to change my mind

I do like the fact that at least as of right now GG offers you the choice of the estart or kick models where KTM forces you to have the estart.

First for more market acceptance (read to pull in more buyers) I would like to see 48mm forks across the board and perhaps 50mm on the Nambotin. Beta has 50mm Zokes on their 2011 bikes across the board. Yeah, 45's work fine but I believe perspective buyers coming from other brands want to see 48's. Then there is the CC vs. OC debate

Ohlins shock....can't go wrong there in almost anyones mind.

The problem with the race models currently is they are way to stiff even for a top level racer it seems. I can't recall one person/review that liked the OEM settings from GG.

I say dump the race model or have Les at LTR give GG some real world setting that will actually work without rattling fillings out. Guys REALLY like that Six Day model and I would be tempted to leave the suspension in the more basic real world settings with all the nice extra features it has and upcharge it accordingly.

So what the heck am I saying? Jeez I'm not really sure and I have no clue what dealers are ordering to compare....

Base 125, 200, 250, 300

Base with Estart 250, 300

Six Day with base suspension but up charge for std. features..125, 200, 250, 300

Race with?? Stiffer CC forks and shock settings, cylinder head options, lighter ignition and limited bling...250 and 300 only. Don't think you need a race 125 or 200 as it's a tiny nitch market.

Nambotin...all the good stuff and bling. TTX forks or Zoke CC50mm, TTX shock and a sick paint/graphics treatment.

Now all this is well and good but what is GG doing about keeping the 2 stroke market from blowing up in our (their) face? I see allot of eggs in one basket here and this really worries me. Plenty of guys are still getting these bikes registered for trail use and the noose is tightening every year. We all know none of these bikes approach even close to being legal so does GG have a plan to address this?

 

[Clay]

Lose the current Race edition for 2012. No need for both 6 Days and Race. If GG cant build the Race any earlier than Jan/Feb than dont bother at all with it. You lose too many buyers by not having bikes available in the fall.

Scotty,
After saying on one of the other posts that you were right, again, I have to bust on you for this one. Did you not read what I said? I'll copy/paste for you below:

All of this is contingent on the factory being able to deliver this model early (August/September of 2011) and not later like the Race model this year.

Sometimes you're a goober!

Your buddy,
Clay

 

[Clay]

Clay, your plan sounds pretty good to me.

I do have one suggestion though. If you could get GasGas to make a 200 with the esart standard instead of having to order it seperately I think you could sell quite a few. I think it would be a big hit with women riders as well as some older guy's.

My wife currently rides a KTM 200 and loves it except she wishes she had the estart. If you brought in a estart 200 I am sure she would have to have one. The fact that the GG is also a smaller feeling and lower bike helps as well. I ride with some older guys who also love their 200's and have considered a GG200 but would really like the estart.

Jeff,
Good idea. Should it be a Race version or a standard?
Clay

 

[Clay]

Skidad,
I didn't mention this but I plan to give the factory some reccommended valving specs and ask for stiffer springs for fat assed Amewricans like me.

BTW....I am pretty much opposed to the 50mm Zoke. I think it is waaaay too stiff for the average rider.

I understand that all of the Euro companies are working with direct injection. I have hopes that we may one day have a EPA compliant two stroke although, getting them approved by the EPA is very expensive.

Clay

 

[stainlesscycle]

200 - Std only as most guys who are buying them are just trail riding and it helps hit a nice price point as an entry level bike.

really? afaik there's a 200cc class in most every enduro/harescramble across the country. it is an excellent trail bike, but with a litte tuning, it makes an excellent race bike - perfect gearing and power for tight woods, and it doesn't feel toy like the ktm200 does.. and it's the only 200 2t out there aside from the ktm..

 

[roostafish]

For me, less is more. No need for a dozen models, so I second the original reply.

Two strokes in kick only or e-start, all but the 125. Truthfully, I'd like to see a 150.

It is nice that our bikes chime with lights. Front and rear please.

I don't give a rip about four strokes. If GG is going to sell them, that Yamaha powered 250 seems okay. The big one is a pile though (my opinion). I wouldn't bother. Maybe buy someone else's engine for that too. Not that it matters to me.

Maybe there is trouble back East with two stroke trail bikes, but we have no such problem in the PNW. It may be coming, but at some point, if the demand for two strokes is high enough, the producers will make them, and make them legal.

 

[Krieg]

I'm too new to the brand to be taken seriously, but I think there's something to be said for less models. As a GG newbie, I'm swimming in a pool of confusion about what I bought and what is available. Simplification is a good thing IMHO. Just a thought.

 

[Skidad]

Skidad,
I didn't mention this but I plan to give the factory some reccommended valving specs and ask for stiffer springs for fat assed Amewricans like me.

BTW....I am pretty much opposed to the 50mm Zoke. I think it is waaaay too stiff for the average rider.



Clay

It's not really about the physical size of the fork but the spring and valving choices made for the fork (as you can see from your top sentence). Plenty of guys love the 50mm Zokes....especially after Les at LTR gets his hands on them.

Perhaps GG could get Ohlins to make a TTX cartridge kit for 48mm Zokes?

 

[john01]

Ok here's my .02......EC 150, 200, 250, and 300 standard kick start. 200, 250, & 300 EC with e-start. 250 & 300 Race/Six Days hybrid with the good race stuff (brakes, cooler, 48 mm forks, skid plate, rad braces, etc. This is the set up I would get now and what I think you are talking about Clay. I agree if they aren't out by fall just stick with the SixDay. I don't think Gasgas should go overboard with the models but don't loose sales to KTM because you don't have a 200 for the beginners or a race ready 300 for the pro's. Thank you Clay for asking our opinions I appreciate it.

 

[Clay]

For me, less is more. No need for a dozen models, so I second the original reply.

Two strokes in kick only or e-start, all but the 125. Truthfully, I'd like to see a 150.

It is nice that our bikes chime with lights. Front and rear please.

I don't give a rip about four strokes. If GG is going to sell them, that Yamaha powered 250 seems okay. The big one is a pile though (my opinion). I wouldn't bother. Maybe buy someone else's engine for that too. Not that it matters to me.

Maybe there is trouble back East with two stroke trail bikes, but we have no such problem in the PNW. It may be coming, but at some point, if the demand for two strokes is high enough, the producers will make them, and make them legal.

Obviously I agree that there are too many models. I have spent the last 4.5 months first trying to understand the differences and then trying to explain them. Lots of confusion, no doubt. I also agree that the 125 needs to be a 150. That's on my list, too. We can't bring them w/ rear tail lights. There are a series of questions from the EPA that you have to pass to get the competition off road exemption. You can't have headlight, spark arrestor and taillight. Or a full warranty, less than 10" suspension travel or a seat that will carry two people. Those questions are designed to keep out the cheap Chinese stuff. You have to answer 'no' to 4 of the 6 questions above to qualify.I was told that next year the 450 may have a Yamaha WR motor.

 

[Clay]

I'm too new to the brand to be taken seriously, but I think there's something to be said for less models. As a GG newbie, I'm swimming in a pool of confusion about what I bought and what is available. Simplification is a good thing IMHO. Just a thought.

Absolutely not! A lot of the guys on this site have been around GG long enough that they get the small differences. Guys like yourself are the guys struggling the most with this overload. Your comment is exactly what I am trying to avoid next year so I especially want to hear from the "newbies"!
Clay

 

[Clay]

Ok here's my .02......EC 150, 200, 250, and 300 standard kick start. 200, 250, & 300 EC with e-start. 250 & 300 Race/Six Days hybrid with the good race stuff (brakes, cooler, 48 mm forks, skid plate, rad braces, etc. This is the set up I would get now and what I think you are talking about Clay. I agree if they aren't out by fall just stick with the SixDay. I don't think Gasgas should go overboard with the models but don't loose sales to KTM because you don't have a 200 for the beginners or a race ready 300 for the pro's. Thank you Clay for asking our opinions I appreciate it.

Ok so John totally agreed with me so its a done deal. Discussion over!
Just kidding....!
Clay

 

[Clay]

It's not really about the physical size of the fork but the spring and valving choices made for the fork (as you can see from your top sentence). Plenty of guys love the 50mm Zokes....especially after Les at LTR gets his hands on them.

Perhaps GG could get Ohlins to make a TTX cartridge kit for 48mm Zokes?

Good point. I will ask Ohlins and the factory about the TTX/Marzocchi 48 kit. Maybe the 48 zoke will be so good that you won't want it. I'm looking forward to getting to ride a bike with that new fork on it.

 

[john01]

Yep! Yes sir, sir yes sir LOL! I also like your idea on calling the EC's XC's. That alone with eliminate lot's of the confusion.

 

[dank]

i rather like how ktm has their deal set up in the sense that they have a race edition (xc) and a trail (xc-w) for their two stroke enduros. if we keep the standard bike, with option of estart or not, a race edition with different suspension components and other little bells and whistles, then have the special editions for people with too much money on their hands. definately need to lay out the differences for new buyers, but being able to choose a full out race bike versus a trail hopper would be nice, and to be able to get a race ready bike without paying an arm and a leg (nambo) would be nice too.