Opinion of Changes to US GG line for 2012
- Thread starter Clay
- Start date
Geez Clay - now look what you've done! 4 pages already. Jeff's new server is going to be toast if you keep starting threads like this one
No problems here - the extra heat takes the edge off in my garage!
jeff
Leon_gasgas
New member
Hi!
I am writing from Finland. What I will suggest is what I would like to see in the European market too. I started driving in the woods when I was 24 years old in 2004 with a good used 1998 EC250. At the end of 2006 I bought a 4-speed MC250 with the CC 50mm Marzocchi fork. It was a mistake for the woods here and I then bought after 2 months a brand new generation 2007 EC250. It was stolen after some months and then I bought new the only one in the country 2007 EC250 with Ohlins forks and shock (the cheap one with only high speed adj.) After one year (August 2008) the same guys stole the Ohlins GG and the bike was never found.
The brand has been suffering from "not so great" importers and distributors in Finland (since 2003-04) so I switched to 2T Yamahas (2 years on an enduro converted 2008 YZ250 and lately on a 2008 YZ125). I would be strange and somehow stupid to continue on GasGas no matter how much I like the brand. But still I will buy a new EC250 next year or so when I will feel I got enough of a school time on the YZ125, even if I will have to order usual oem parts from Germany.
I just tried last week my friends 2008 EC125 when at the same time he tried my YZ. The EC was smaller overall and turned easier in the very tight woods because of the different offset but lacking everywhere else. The motor wasn't responding so well down low. It needed more clutching than the YZ to wake up. It doesn't need a 150 kit, just some fine-tuning. If it becomes 150 for the US market then the 200 might not be needed(?).
I suggest the following lines:
1) Base EC models with 45mm Zokes and Ohlins shock or Sacks - Sacks. I understood the 2011 Sachs forks are much improved compared to previous generations.
2) Combined 6D and Race models (called just the 6D) with all the protection staff added, Ohlins shock and TTX cartridge kit in the Sachs fork.
3) Cervantes and Nambotin replicas with their personal graphics, cylinder heads and TTX Ohlins shock additionally to the 6D versions.
IF the company wants to offer a 250 4t, then offer it as the 6D version above with full Ohlins set up. Then the customer has one more reason to buy this special 4T, than the universally accepted and quite good Yamaha WR250F.
The e-starters to be sold as bolt on kits only in a good price.
Also, KYB SSS CC 48s could be THE fork for every line. It is proven and can be set up super plush for woods or super stiff for PRO MX. And TTX kits are available for every brand that uses them.
Best Regards,
Leon
I am writing from Finland. What I will suggest is what I would like to see in the European market too. I started driving in the woods when I was 24 years old in 2004 with a good used 1998 EC250. At the end of 2006 I bought a 4-speed MC250 with the CC 50mm Marzocchi fork. It was a mistake for the woods here and I then bought after 2 months a brand new generation 2007 EC250. It was stolen after some months and then I bought new the only one in the country 2007 EC250 with Ohlins forks and shock (the cheap one with only high speed adj.) After one year (August 2008) the same guys stole the Ohlins GG and the bike was never found.
The brand has been suffering from "not so great" importers and distributors in Finland (since 2003-04) so I switched to 2T Yamahas (2 years on an enduro converted 2008 YZ250 and lately on a 2008 YZ125). I would be strange and somehow stupid to continue on GasGas no matter how much I like the brand. But still I will buy a new EC250 next year or so when I will feel I got enough of a school time on the YZ125, even if I will have to order usual oem parts from Germany.
I just tried last week my friends 2008 EC125 when at the same time he tried my YZ. The EC was smaller overall and turned easier in the very tight woods because of the different offset but lacking everywhere else. The motor wasn't responding so well down low. It needed more clutching than the YZ to wake up. It doesn't need a 150 kit, just some fine-tuning. If it becomes 150 for the US market then the 200 might not be needed(?).
I suggest the following lines:
1) Base EC models with 45mm Zokes and Ohlins shock or Sacks - Sacks. I understood the 2011 Sachs forks are much improved compared to previous generations.
2) Combined 6D and Race models (called just the 6D) with all the protection staff added, Ohlins shock and TTX cartridge kit in the Sachs fork.
3) Cervantes and Nambotin replicas with their personal graphics, cylinder heads and TTX Ohlins shock additionally to the 6D versions.
IF the company wants to offer a 250 4t, then offer it as the 6D version above with full Ohlins set up. Then the customer has one more reason to buy this special 4T, than the universally accepted and quite good Yamaha WR250F.
The e-starters to be sold as bolt on kits only in a good price.
Also, KYB SSS CC 48s could be THE fork for every line. It is proven and can be set up super plush for woods or super stiff for PRO MX. And TTX kits are available for every brand that uses them.
Best Regards,
Leon
T.Low
New member
my 2cents of market research
Not sure how much of a demographic I represent: At age 45 I returned to riding last year after a 35 yr absence. (my last bike being a 1975 XR75...well, other than a brief stint on an '81 CBX in the early '80s)
I like the plated fse 450 4 stroke because I can ride singletrack with the 300s around the local ORV park all day long one weekend, then ride thru the mountains on the forest service roads, jeep track, and singletrack with the LC4s, DRZ 400s, and DR650s (while wheelieing past them all at every opportunity) the next weekend. I can also put the plated 450 on the back of my 4x4 camper van to use as a dingy while overlanding through the mountains.
I thought the H'berg 390 was going to be my end all bike, but it doesn't effortlessly loft the front end all the way up the mountain like my 450 does, and actually, that's a pretty frikin important element of my riding experience.
My plated fse 450 4stroke is the absolute perfect bike for my needs. All it is missing is the 6th gear for the ocassional slab cruising that is sometimes needed to get from one mountain to the next. I 'spose I'll have to keep my '05 going strong, or maybe get a 'berg in a few years. (i just can't go over to the orange side!) Maybe by the time I need a new one, they'll be available again.
Not sure how much of a demographic I represent: At age 45 I returned to riding last year after a 35 yr absence. (my last bike being a 1975 XR75...well, other than a brief stint on an '81 CBX in the early '80s)
I like the plated fse 450 4 stroke because I can ride singletrack with the 300s around the local ORV park all day long one weekend, then ride thru the mountains on the forest service roads, jeep track, and singletrack with the LC4s, DRZ 400s, and DR650s (while wheelieing past them all at every opportunity) the next weekend. I can also put the plated 450 on the back of my 4x4 camper van to use as a dingy while overlanding through the mountains.
I thought the H'berg 390 was going to be my end all bike, but it doesn't effortlessly loft the front end all the way up the mountain like my 450 does, and actually, that's a pretty frikin important element of my riding experience.
My plated fse 450 4stroke is the absolute perfect bike for my needs. All it is missing is the 6th gear for the ocassional slab cruising that is sometimes needed to get from one mountain to the next. I 'spose I'll have to keep my '05 going strong, or maybe get a 'berg in a few years. (i just can't go over to the orange side!) Maybe by the time I need a new one, they'll be available again.
stainlesscycle
Site Sponsor
tm racing kinda does this. i don't know if it's very successful for them. it's a great idea, but in practice i don't know if it works.
einsteingarage
New member
Jeff. Zoke has a 48mm fork. The Zip Ty Racing guys have been using it for a year now.
According to the spec sheet that the factory sent out, the Racing models will be coming with a 48mm Zoke fork. This is why Clay keeps mentioning it.
The 50mm Zoke works fine but it eats fork seals. I would prefer the open chamber 50mm personally over the TC version.
In a perfect world, I would put KYB TC forks on everything. Apparently, Huskys biggest reason for switching to KYB was cost. With the devalued Yen, Husky/BMW can buy KYBs for considerably less $$ than they can buy Zokes/Sachs forks for.
According to the spec sheet that the factory sent out, the Racing models will be coming with a 48mm Zoke fork. This is why Clay keeps mentioning it.
The 50mm Zoke works fine but it eats fork seals. I would prefer the open chamber 50mm personally over the TC version.
In a perfect world, I would put KYB TC forks on everything. Apparently, Huskys biggest reason for switching to KYB was cost. With the devalued Yen, Husky/BMW can buy KYBs for considerably less $$ than they can buy Zokes/Sachs forks for.
nhrider
Silver Level Site Supporter
I loved my 200. I trail rode and had my bike road legal.
I would like to see a standard 200. Let me update it with the Hard Parts catalog when the time comes. Sometimes people..okay..wifes...look at the purchase price and say no way. Us poor guys just need that "in" with the "cheaper" purchase of the pike. Then we can upgrade as the money allows.
I would like to see a standard 200. Let me update it with the Hard Parts catalog when the time comes. Sometimes people..okay..wifes...look at the purchase price and say no way. Us poor guys just need that "in" with the "cheaper" purchase of the pike. Then we can upgrade as the money allows.
GMP
Active member
Wow, I missed a party last night!
Clay,
I agree on the integration of the SixDay and Race models. I'd also like to see some US specific suspension specs for both Race and standard models. Set the Standard bike up for a average B rider and the race for an A rider. I'd also spec the 2K-2 ignition and perhaps incliude a flywheel weight. 2K-3 on the standard. The 200 seems like a forgotten bike the last few years. It would be nice to reintroduce it perhaps with some tuning changes like a 36mm carb. An estart 200 though? Not sure about that one, perhaps a bit too odd. Another thought about estart: How feasable would it be to get all the standard bikes in the same, with no estart, and estart kits shipped separate, for the same price? You could then do the conversion if it was not too labor intensive(designed in for 2012), or the dealer could do it. The advantage would be no waiting for an estart bike, just convert an in stock unit. Again, one less model from the factory.
A 150 would be cool. The 250F is just too damn expensive, hate to say. Perhaps this would change if/when the GG in house motor is released.
As a company I'd do what I do best at this point, and what appears on making a comeback: 2-strokes. Keep thing as simple and efficient as possible, maintain focus on evolution and customer feedback, and set a goal for the DI 2-stroke.
Clay,
I agree on the integration of the SixDay and Race models. I'd also like to see some US specific suspension specs for both Race and standard models. Set the Standard bike up for a average B rider and the race for an A rider. I'd also spec the 2K-2 ignition and perhaps incliude a flywheel weight. 2K-3 on the standard. The 200 seems like a forgotten bike the last few years. It would be nice to reintroduce it perhaps with some tuning changes like a 36mm carb. An estart 200 though? Not sure about that one, perhaps a bit too odd. Another thought about estart: How feasable would it be to get all the standard bikes in the same, with no estart, and estart kits shipped separate, for the same price? You could then do the conversion if it was not too labor intensive(designed in for 2012), or the dealer could do it. The advantage would be no waiting for an estart bike, just convert an in stock unit. Again, one less model from the factory.
A 150 would be cool. The 250F is just too damn expensive, hate to say. Perhaps this would change if/when the GG in house motor is released.
As a company I'd do what I do best at this point, and what appears on making a comeback: 2-strokes. Keep thing as simple and efficient as possible, maintain focus on evolution and customer feedback, and set a goal for the DI 2-stroke.
Clay
Banned
GGMan,
I understand your point. That's kind of why I want to still keep the standard. The new Race version would be the upper end but a OEM can easily overload a lot of customers with too much bling. Plus, whether you guys want to hear this or not....it is a profit center for the dealers and dealers MUST make money to survive. So....I'not enough and too much. Im trying to walk the thin line between not enough and too much. I think the 3 models I have in mind would do that.
Clay
stainlesscycle
Site Sponsor
imho the 200 already is the ultimate single track weapon...i don't see a need for 175cc..
i like 175's (i race 1 of them in a vintage race). but since there's not a series with a class break at 175cc, why not just stick with the 200cc? 175 would kinda be the answer to the question no one asked. you don't need to be in the powerband like a 125 with the 200, but it still keeps you busy - you can lug the 200 a bit, not like a 300, but it's got plenty of power for all the east coast stuff.
here's what i don't understand, why would a 2k-3 be on a 125 or 200? doesn't that limit the plusses of the small bore bikes?
Clay
Banned
Please remember that GF has had their world turned updise down. We're going to sell close to 500 units this year which is 10 times what was sold last year. Mark is adding heavily to his inventory BUT his sales will follow our by at least 6 months or more. They have done a great job so far while adding a HP catalog and a lot of other items. Please be patient with them.
Clay
Clay
Banned
Thank you, Tom!
Clay
Banned
No problems here - the extra heat takes the edge off in my garage!
jeff
Sorry Jeff!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clay
Banned
I agree. We need to stay with the traditional engine sizes.
I'm not sure which ignition the 125/200s have on them. We just shipped 125s yesterday so somebody should be able to tell us soon. 200s are in Savannah now and will be shipped next week.
Clay
Clay
Banned
Guys,
Thanks for all of the input. I appreciate it. If you have additional comments please keep them coming. However, keep it on the main topic of models. I know that the bikes need to have more common fasteners and I know the suspension set up needs to be better. Those are things on my list from the last 4 months. I want to concentrate on the model line up only here.
Again....thanks for your input. It is appreciated!
Clay
Thanks for all of the input. I appreciate it. If you have additional comments please keep them coming. However, keep it on the main topic of models. I know that the bikes need to have more common fasteners and I know the suspension set up needs to be better. Those are things on my list from the last 4 months. I want to concentrate on the model line up only here.
Again....thanks for your input. It is appreciated!
Clay
dcg141
Site Sponsor
From what I undestand the 48MM Zokes are thier latest and best fork. Hanging with Marzzochi is the was to go I believe because they now have alot of money behind them with the aqusistion by Tennco. Also the Ohlin/Zoke combo seems to work well on the Gasser. 3 models is fine. Makes is less confusing on the dealer and the end user. Actually its only 2 models becuase the Nambotin is really a secialty bike and its own beast. One thing I think needs to stay is the red and white look of th 11's. The red shrouds on the standard and the white on the Race/SD. Customers have really reacted well to that color combo more so than the black. Looks count when it comes to sales. I like Clay's combo and think that will work. The Race/SD needs to have a regular number plate sent with the bike imo also. Lay off 4 strokes until the pipeline is cleared out. I would not order another 450 of any make if my life depended on it...just ask the Beta rep that keeps bugging me.
150 Race
200 Standard
250/300 Standard w Estart/ Race WO
150 Race
200 Standard
250/300 Standard w Estart/ Race WO
I agreee with the 3 models. 2t only 125, 200,250 and 300
The suspension needs to be standardized. All the models need to have the same suspension components. 48mm ? forks and ? shocks on ALL the models.
XC=base 125,200,250,300
XC-E= E-start 200,250,300. The same bike as the base , but with an e-starter.
XC-R = R is the race model. 125,200,250,300. Kickstart only, with all the upgrades. All the necessary guards,lighter ignition, stiffer suspension valving, and both the light and a seperate #plate.
Upgrade the fasteners and how about some real hose clamps.
The suspension needs to be standardized. All the models need to have the same suspension components. 48mm ? forks and ? shocks on ALL the models.
XC=base 125,200,250,300
XC-E= E-start 200,250,300. The same bike as the base , but with an e-starter.
XC-R = R is the race model. 125,200,250,300. Kickstart only, with all the upgrades. All the necessary guards,lighter ignition, stiffer suspension valving, and both the light and a seperate #plate.
Upgrade the fasteners and how about some real hose clamps.
I think the spec sheet was in error - it was edited to change sachs to marzocchi and the sachs was 48mm and the oem marzocchi is usually either 45mm or 50mm; I was suggesting that clay double check and I still do...
Marzocchi does list a 48mm fork - but it has been in production for a very short time and is listed as closed cartridge (twin chamber).
As far as I know - some of the husky race teams were running a 48mm showa on a couple of bikes for a time - but not a 48mm zoke - And for what it's worth - my view is that this change was done because tuners are more familiar with the showa and for business reasons - not because they were "better" in any way.
And after talking to Les for a bit - I now agree with you on opting for the open chamber versus the twin chamber 50mm zoke for off road work....
Jeff
Jeff
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