Suspension Examination:

[Jakobi]

I revalved my shock again today. Softened it up some more from stock to run the comp adj in further, while allowing the HSC to move more freely on the square edges. This also allowed the rebound to be turned in a few more to settle the back without the cross talk making the comp too harsh. Running on the stock spring with 10mm preload. May try the 5.4 with 7mm again if I find it bottoming too much, however traction and ability to absorb seems good from initial tests.

Saw your ride report Nath. Looked stellar! Reminds me of what we have here.

 

[n_green]

70k's yesterday, the majority being single track with some quicker twin trail.
Forks were bloody good everywhere, although since this was one of the quicker rides I've been on lately I did notice that rebound still needs some work.
LSR is good, we rode some slippery moss covered off camber rocks and the front held well, same for carving ruts. I did notice though that I'm at 4 clicks out, so I wouldn't mind beefing it up a tad to get more adjustment for when/if I need it.
Likewise HSR got a bit hectic on the quicker downhill sections when there was a lot going on eg rocks and roots with foot step downs, they were pretty good but had a tendency to pogo slightly when hitting them, made worse and more noticeable if there were repeated step downs.

Could probably address both with one carefully placed shim, I'll speak to the tuner about it next time I have them apart for a service.

The shock was ok but definitely needs work when I open it up for a service. Rebound is good, comp needs work. LSC is pretty good, especially now I've upped the spring to a 6.4. Squats and grips well and handles the g outs without bottoming. I am only 4 clicks out though so again it would be nice to have a bit more adjustment when needed.
HSC still kicks, I really have to switch on when hitting locks/square edges or I'll get a massive kick in the ass. Still not entirely sure if it's too soft or too firm. A HSC clicker would really help....

On the ride yesterday Stu was following me all day and commented that my shock was far less compliant and didn't track too well in the choppy stuff compared to his which is what I felt while riding the bike.

 

[Jakobi]

Good write up.

Be interested to see/hear what the stacks are in the shock Nath. I think probably still too much HSC for what we are doing with them. And upping spring rates just adds to it.

Its basically the same thing I chased for a long time on my TTX. Great everywhere except for square edges. It just wouldn't react fast enough. Taking away LSC/softer springs wouldn't help as you'd just be riding lower in the stroke and it would ramp up even faster. Adding LSC would bring it up in the stroke and allow the bike to handle them better, but at the expense of harsh trail manners. Smaller clamp, bigger crossover - Supports the LSC part of the stage, but allows the rest to flex and flow easier.

 

[n_green]

I'd say you're on the money Jake. Sounds exactly like what my problem is. Will know soon enough, only a few more rides and it's due for a service. Hit 35hrs/1000k's yesterday.

 

[n_green]

Bored today after building a garden retaining wall. Strapped some sleepers together and made myself a foot high 'log'. Needed to test the bike after fixing it and putting it back together after my crash so was a good opportunity to test the bike and have a look at the suspension at the same time.

How good is the new iPhone 6 slo-mo video.

http://youtu.be/6v0kkoDoMz4


So I'm now 99% sure the HSC on the shock is too soft. You can see it blow through and hit the bump stop kicking the rear end up. LSC on the shock is also a tad soft based on it bottoming when landing on the other side.
Rebound appears to be a tad quick from within deep in the stroke as well. Seems to bounce up and then compress once or twice before settling. Not sure if this is too bad though?

Forks seem to handle the HSC square edged hit well without using too much travel. Could use a touch more LSC to avoid using so much travel on landing.

 

[Jakobi]

Even though its a square edge, you're just chuggin around in the back yard and the video doesn't really show how fast you're actually hitting it. I'm guessing first gear not much over a brisk walk, so even though its a big square edge, smaller chop at faster speeds probably create much higher shaft speeds.

To me, it appears you have very little LSC. Bike uses quite a bit of stroke just preloading it, and quite a bit again when you come back in contact with the ground. You're also not using that much travel at all in the actual absorption of the edge and the back end is tracking really well, as opposed to deflecting.

 

[n_green]

True. Barely walking speed in first gear. Tried going a bit quicker and in second gear with similar results though as can be seen, the size of my backyard doesn't really allow high speeds.
Agree with the LSC observation, does seem to use a lot of it given the low speed.

I need to go and ride a proper trail and record video there, front and rear suspension is due for a service in 5 hrs so I want to sus out what changes to make by then.

 

[Jakobi]

I've tried working in a couple directions with mine, and I think I prefer more LSC and less HSC. It tends to make the bike feel rather firm initially, and can be a bit choppy in the slow stuff, but as the speed increases the bike sits up in the stroke a bit better, particulary in corners, but when hitting things that would typically spike it responds well.

The other option is to set it up plush with little LSC which makes a great trail setup, and the slower and rougher the terrain the better it feels, but I find with this setup that as speed increases the chasis begins to feel too busy, can wallow, and when you find the high speed square edge you're already half way through your travel. Adding HSC to this makes it firm up fast and resist bottoming as much but you then get deflection if it can't react fast enough, or going softer just sees you bottom and deflect.

So as always, its a compromise depending on what you want, but I'm personally happy to give up some inital plushness for a setup that will feel safe at speed.

 

[n_green]

What you've described is what I think my bike is doing at the moment. I really banged on about having a plush ride to the tuner when he revalved it, and he delivered. The rougher slower trail trash it handles with ease. Up the pace and it starts getting busy and unsettled/blows through.

I'll hopefully get out for a muck around mid weeker this week and put the suspension through its paces/record it. Then I'll tear it all down and revalve it. I'd say I'll end up doing what you have and add more LSC to both ends.

 

[Jakobi]

I just did my shock, so even though we're on different models, if you want to compare notes I'd be keen. Particularly interested to know what size shaft and piston the Reiger uses.

On my forks (which I'm meant to be doing soon), I was going to pull a 12mm shim out of the HS part of the mid valve, which will also open up the float to .5mm. It'll put us somewhere between where I am now, and where you are.

 

[n_green]

http://youtu.be/zqY500nCCIs

Video showing normal speed as well as slo mo uploaded.

 

[n_green]

80k's of riding today. Mostly snotty root infested rocky singles. Suspension isn't too bad overall though needs some work front and rear with the LSC.

The rear isn't too bad, LSC is about 8 clicks out of 25. Less LSC results in the rear squatting too much and riding low in the stroke. Couple this with hitting a decent sized square edge and it causes a spike and kick in the pants. More LSC results in the rear not squatting enough, spinning up instead of gripping and harsh over trail trash. Where it is now is a tad firm and slightly harsh on trail trash but it's the best compromise at the moment.

Forks seem to have lost oil again. They are diving under brakes, blowing through on downhill sections when hitting holes/roots etc and then pogoing too fast from deep in the stroke. Seems to be a sign from these forks it's time for a service. Only 20hrs since the last one, high maintenance these forks!

Currently have the comp clicker at 4 out. It has to be here to keep the forks up in the stroke and prevent them from diving. LS rebound is good, didn't touch it all day. HS rebound is a tad quick from deep in the stroke. Landing from a jump will rebound the front wheel back into the air.

Plan is to service front and rear, then with fresh oil go and confirm the above is still happening.

Only footage from today:

http://youtu.be/QKaqCAAq7R8

 

[n_green]

Stolen from the Beat forum on Thumpertalk:
"For 2012-2014 Beta's with the 48mm Red Zokes, order the 1.4 kg pressure springs from your Beta dealer. They make a HUGE difference in the plushness of the fork.
The 2015 models all arrive with the softer pressure springs and do not need this update.

The forks need roughly 10 hours of use before they start to work.

Also, they are not the same forks that are on other brands. They are in fact 48mm zones however Beta engineers design the internals and have them built to their specs."

Interesting that they are now using a softer ICS spring. Wonder if it would be beneficial to Gassers as well.

 

[nato]

I have that in mine Nathan. It seems to work well for me however I agree with the "high maintenance" bit!

 

[memphis2857]

The back looked a little slow on compression for my liking. I didn't read the whole thread but you look like a pretty big dude. What spring rates are you using? Stock valving? And yes the zokes are very high maintenance. The lack of any hard coating on their fork tubes pollutes the oil really fast.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Jakobi]

Natos running 1.8kg/mm ICS springs from memory, but more influential than the actual rate, is the length of his springs. They had a load of negative preload, to the point that even when assembled there was some negative preload. His basevalve is valved a whole lot firmer as a result as well.

The Betas are valved differently to the Gassers from the factory. Simmo had the Beta valving in his previous bike and was more than happy with it.

I'm personally not a fan of dropping ICS rates to soften the action of the fork. The ICS has a purpose, and that is to combat cavitation - thats why we purchase closed cartridge forks.

 

[n_green]

Another 60ks yesterday of rocks, roots and ruts. Most of it 2nd and 3rd gear occasionally 4th gear.
Rear is definitely soft everywhere. Clicker is now at approx 6 out, best compromise of grip/plushness however it rides a bit low in the stroke and blows through on g-outs or square edges, especially when going quicker in 3rd and 4th. It's flat out dangerous at speed. Rebound is great, no complaints about that at all. That's with a 6.4 spring rate.
Forks - not happy with them, they are ok but that's it.
LSR is adequate, no real complaints there but the clicker is basically closed at 1-2 out.
HSR is not good, when the pace picks up and you're going down a rocky snotty hill they are way too busy, partly from using too much stroke and then partly from rebounding too hard. HSR needs to be beefed up considerably.
LSC is ok, plush especially at slower speeds but again when the pace picks up they tend to ride down in the stroke and use too much travel. If hitting a square edge when they are like this it causes a small spike and upsets the front wheel tracking.
HSC is actually ok, square edges and trail trash can comfortably be hit at speed and I think any harshness felt is simply a result of the forks riding too low in the stroke and then hitting the HSC stage of the stack. I'll probably beef up LSC along and see if that improves everything.