Suspension experts please help

M

mikemoto

New member
Ok so I took off the Sachs front and rear and put on Ohlins TTX about 2 month's ago and have been fighting them the whole time. To be honest I really didn't hate the Sachs stuff but I have a friend that owed me some money and I ended up with this ttx stuff. Now I have been riding all my life and I'm a semi fast 50+b rider usually in the top 5. I have had plenty of bike's revalved but I never can explain whats wrong with the suspension. I know if it's harsh, I know if it's deflecting, and so on but don't know how to explain that to a tuner.

So here is what I feel.
The forks were sent with 48 springs (I had 44 in my Sachs) and the forks felt way to stiff. Riding down a dirt road lets say it felt like super-cross forks little bump felt like big bumps or like holding onto a jack hammer, but then going through whoops or hitting a big log the forks would soak up the big hits like they weren't even there. My practice trail has been logged a few years ago and has some 4-6" high stumps coming out of the ground and I can smash into them and hardly even feel them. Now here is the big problem, the bike that used to turn like it was on rails no longer turns, and not only will it not stick into a berm but it feels like the front wheel is on ice. I road the national Sunday and spent half of the day with my feet flailing trying to keep from falling, and the other half pulling over in the middle of a test and turning clicker's to no avail. It had some of the nicest trail I have ever seen and at the halfway point I wanted to quite because the bike was beating the crap out of me.I am frustrated to say the least. I called Ohlins yesterday and they told me Cole had to have a little compression taken out, and I'm thinking if he needed a little what the heck do I need.

So here is my question.

What do I tell the tuner at Ohlins to do for me? Right now I have the 44 springs in I hate the way the bike rides. I was told yesterday to put my forks in the stock position with the clickers at the recommended setting and see how it feels. Feels stiff to me I mounted my camera on the forks to see what they were doing but it's hard to tell. The forks were moving but it looks like in the middle of the stroke it stops. At the enduro I bottomed only once and it was a big g out with a log in the middle so I'm pretty sure anything would have bottomed. What would cause the bike not to turn? Again yesterday on the trail I went into a berm and the front end flew up over the berm and down I went.

The bottom line is it beats me up (front and rear) feels like im holding onto jack hammers and the bike is all over the place. I'm considering going back to the Sachs stuff but I want to give Ohlins a shot at getting this to work for me, but I dont know what to tell them I need. I have gone back and forth with the springs 48, one 48 on 44, 44"s seem to work better. Any help in telling me how to explain this would be very helpful and appreciated.:confused::confused::confused:
 
I've been through a lot of bikes and resprings / revalves and there is no way in hell anyone will convince me I need .48 springs for my weight when I know .44s work. It doesn?t matter much what the cartridge is, you start with the spring, so if .44s were good before they should be a starting point. No matter how much $$ you throw at components it comes down to setup anyway, what you buy is perhaps more dynamic range. Now, why did it turn with the stupid stiff .48s and not the .44s? Are they really .44s? What is your preload, not jacked up too high? Shock settings the same? This makes no sense all other things being equal, if anything it should oversteer.

Sometimes too fast a rebound can be mistaken for compression harshness, this is common in the Zoke 45s. This would also explain poor turn in as the bike would want to stand up, do you have the same rebound settings as before?

I'm not going to guess as I know nothing about TTX but its still just a damper with compression, midvalve, and rebound functions and has to be tuned by someone who knows whats going on. You have to find that person. The guy at Ohlins may not be him. JMO.
 
Harry Reed in NC does work on the Ohlins stuff. Might be worth a ride up there to test and tune with him? This way you can get it dialed and won't have to ship stuff back and forth.

Another option would be Evan Yarnell at SolidPerformance. He's an Ohlins dealer and they are a GG dealer.
 
The bike didn't turn with the 48 springs. As a matter of fact it was probably worse. The bike turned good with the stock Sachs fork. The best I could get the fork to work was rebound turned way in and compression turned way out but like I said that was the best I can get them to work and it still felt like the front end was wondering all over. It's not the tire because I have tried a few. My guess is to much compression dampening, to much high speed dampening and not enough rebound. I'm hoping someone who has worked on these will chime in because Ohlins said they will revalve them for just a few bucks. I don't want to put a bunch of money into these because I really didn't hate the stock stuff.

By the way the 44's were out of my Sachs forks and I put them in when I first bought the bike.
 
Is the TTX a closed cartridge or open setup? If it never turned good with them its just valved too stiff, I thought you meant it stopped turning with the .44s. Compression valving, maybe too fast rebound, and maybe too stiff a cartridge spring if its closed cartridge, or a combination of all three. What is your shock setup like?
 
There could also be some different measurements between the Ohlins and the Sachs around the axle area that are causing your steering troubles...I can't recall if you are using the stock clamps or not so there could be a difference there, too. What are your sag settings both static and dynamic? Your shock could be riding too low causing a "push" in the front. Glenn was right on the forks rebound: If it is too light it will not turn well consistently. I would strongly suggest you re-check your front axle to make sure it is not bound-up. That will kill any decent steering on any bike (go to Moto-Pro Suspension under Shop Tips for front axle alignment...This is absolutely critical on 48mm forks). I know it is a little late for this but before you swapped everything out you should have weighed the bike on the front wheel and the rear wheel so it could be setup with the same weight bias (assuming it was good to start). Wholesale changes like that needs a baseline to get you close and equal weight bias is a good head start. On a side note, if you want to sell your Sachs forks please let me know as I LOVE them on my riding buddies 2010 300!!

Eric
 
Maybe this is in another post...

But how much do you weigh?

How much fork oil is in the fork? How much is suggested?

How much preload is on the shock? If it's much more than about 8mm it's too much...

If you got them from your buddy, has someone revalved them in the mean time? We've been doing Ohlins stuff for several years- directly from them it usually works good enough as is (tune it to make it better for the individual) but it works pretty good out of the box...
 
The ttx stuff is an insert so you use your stock tubs so all is the same as stock. I believe they are closed closed cartrage but instead of a spring they are gas charged kinda like a shock.
 
I'm ready to run whatever springs you suggest Dave :D

I agree with the other responses so far too. Check that the forks aren't binding. Have you over torqued the triple clamps? still running 3 bolts in the lower or 2? Where are the forks in the triple clamps?

For the front end not tracking check sag and preload both end.

I've also found that if the rebound is too fast the bike dips in as you enter the corner and then the rebound pushes back out too fast causing the bike to stand up. Softening or fastening the compression only compounds this action making it worse. More dip in and a faster rebound. If the bike can stay up in its stroke for most of its work, you only need as much rebound as required to get it back to where it needs to be.
 
The forks are not binding, they have 1 mm preload, it's not the shock because it acts the same with the Sachs shock or the ttx shock. Someone a few weeks ago suggested 22 out on compression and 6 out on rebound and that worked better but still not ttx great. This stuff was bought brand new but has the 2011 valveing and Ohlins told me they have a softer compression setting in the 2012 forks. I'm thinking the rebound is way to fast. Like I said when I am riding down a road and hit all the little bumps they feel like jack hammers. Also I can charge big whoops and I sucks them up like there not there. I get the fact that you can't have plush stuff and be able to run through whoops like that but I don't charge hard like that all day. Also again the biggest problem is the front end dancing all over the trail.
 
I would make an appt with a tuner and meet up to get it dialed. That will save you a ton of headaches. Trail time is valuable, why mess with it when you can get it fixed with a day spent with a tuner.
 
The link below has some good tips on dialing suspension, you've probably done something similar already, just thought it might help.

http://www.4strokes.com/tech/forkoil.asp

Here is the breakdown of what I've done. Im 200lb nude.

Started at 4.6 280 ml 5 wt.. Clickers ended at c18 and r16 (stock 15 and 10).

Great, but it bottomed, added 20 ml of oil and it was better but still bottomed off big stuff. I could go out to 20 and 16, better.

Went to 4.8 with 300 ml of oil, had to go out to 23 rebound the same.

Revalved my shock with a racetech kit from a husky, rang them with my weight adjusted for the difference in weight to gg, the ratio of the linkage is fairly close. Shock plusher with greater bottoming resistance and better rebound control.

Once I'd done that, to gain balance front to rear I'm at 26 and 16 for trail riding, 5.8 rear spring 10mm preload sag 33 static, 108 with rider, forks tube tops flush with the top of the upper triples, 20 nm upper triple bolts, 10nm bottom and using only top and bottom bolts on the lower triples. I use a Scott's damper.

The bike turns and is very stable, gives feedback but is never harsh unless you hit a deep rim smasher pothole at speed ( what doesnt) but it maintains a line always and has much better grip. It does not have that completely zero feel of anything on the road like crfx showa, it would need a revalve for that, but has more control at the same time.

On the junior enduro test loop for the local national round, I hit a g out that was catching everyone out (spose hats why you track in tests!) as it was hidden just after a rise and wasn't line of site and somehow got through it , I'm certain I would have been on my arse with the stock forks. The ttx just soaked it.
 
Hmmmm... Interesting can you send me some more info on the racetech valve that you fitted. Was it just the valve and spring or did you change shims as well (sorry for going off topic here)
 
Simmo,

What class rider are you? I have been told that my forks might have to much compression damaning, I tried the 4.8 but it seems the 4.4 feel better (I'm 190)
I will have to re check my sag, pretty sure I have it around 105
 
mikemoto said:
Simmo,

What class rider are you? I have been told that my forks might have to much compression damaning, I tried the 4.8 but it seems the 4.4 feel better (I'm 190)
I will have to re check my sag, pretty sure I have it around 105
Click to expand...

Is be mid pack or lower b in your system , clubman to level 4 over here. I don't race any more, just trail and club stuff. I would not use 4.8 at 190, I'd be 4.6 with 300ml, clickers almost all the way out, maybe I have the later valves ( I got them in November), we may not be comparing apples with apples. If that's the case I'd probably get mine revalved, but mine are really good as is (I that's not much help)

I know nothing about the ttx shock, only what I've read, but my forks reacted well to the plusher rear I have now.
 
swazi_matt said:
Hmmmm... Interesting can you send me some more info on the racetech valve that you fitted. Was it just the valve and spring or did you change shims as well (sorry for going off topic here)
Click to expand...

I'm not at home at the moment, so more details when I get there. I used a kit for a 2009 husky te 310, it's a generic kit for all 50mm bodies with 18mm shafts. The valve has different flow rate so you change the shim stacks as well as the valve, but they provide shims and valving charts. I also installed a checkpoint off road bladder conversion kit, so you don't need a bleed bottle when rebuilding the shock to get a good bleed.

The racetech stuff is good if you want to do it yourself, you will get similar results from tuners elsewhere. I do reckon the racetech piston band is better than stock.

Cheers.
 
Mike,

Tim here, I think your mid valve is a bit tight from what your describe. From what I understand about the mid valve is kinda like a HS compression that is only active in the first part of the stroke. You decribed what to me sounds like the compression is good in the last 3/4 part of the stroke but harsh on the first part, which would make me think that you should remove a select shim from the mid valve. Granted I am speaking from what I learned from reading on the net and from taking mine apart today. I figured out my zokes out today and will be making some changes. Tomorrow is the shock. Starting price of $750 for their black magic suspension revalve is too much for me.

-Tim
 
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