18's sure look to have the right parts.

Getoviq95 said:
2018 gas gas looking really good ,but exc250/300 2018 is on another level .Ktm present the new Era in hard enduro.For gasgas will be really hard to survive in this copetative market ,but i wish'em luck .One of the key of success is better marketing and more dealerships around the world .
Click to expand...

I see your point but there are still a lot of people who don't want fuel injection. 4stroke or 2stroke. Also I have a feeling those bikes will be expensive. Are they going to sell if they cost as much as a street legal 4 stroke?
 
arminhammer said:
How so?

By adding FI? This just adds weight and complexity to to something that works fine already and can be field repaired with min tools. I see very little advantage to FI on off road bikes 4 or 2 stroke.
Click to expand...



FI is being done not for performance or simplicity or weight savings. Its being done to meet Euro 4 and Euro 5 standards in Europe. Without FI 2 strokes would go away by 2020.
 
Getoviq95 said:
2018 gas gas looking really good ,but exc250/300 2018 is on another level .Ktm present the new Era in hard enduro.For gasgas will be really hard to survive in this copetative market ,but i wish'em luck .One of the key of success is better marketing and more dealerships around the world .
Click to expand...

FI on a 2 stroke IMO is an unnecessary complication. While I can see the advantages of a cleaner burn for better fuel efficiency and a consistent idle speed I cannot justify the added cost or complexity for a trail bike. I'm sure the only reason KTM is releasing this is to meet the coming EURO5 specs.

I think Sherco is wise to have finished their R&D but not release an FI bike. I'm glad GasGas is not releasing an FI bike yet either. I'm sure it is under development for 2020. But I plan on buying a new GasGas instead of a KTM specifically because it isn't FI among other reasons.
 
Glad FI was brought up, wasn't even thinking of it.
No way do I want 2t FI bike in the early years.
I see so many emission problems at work, don't want any parts of it.
Looks like a new 18/19 for me.
 
exc 300 2018 is 103kg ,3kg over than 2017 ,but 2 kg down than new Gasgas.
-low fuel consumption
-no pre mix fuel
-80:1 fuel/oil ratio vs 50:1 for Gasgas
-no jettings
-doesn't matter on what elevation do you ride ,the engine runs always with the same power
-No flooding when flipping over the bike
-the price will be 1000$ over than Gasgas ,but Ktm have a dealer in every country ,and the parts come on a next day .Plus more aftermarket and second hand parts .And Ktm is easy to reselling .

The choice will be difficult !I still loving Gasgas ,they have something special/something magical in their bikes ,but i also like the inovations of new ktm .The inovations rotate the world !
 
Fi just adds complexity price and parts.I do like my bike running clean and flawlessly but I strongly believe that this type of bikes should have stayed simple.That said all other brands including GG meet euro 4 with carbs, why not Ktm group?
 
SpirosZ1000 said:
Fi just adds complexity price and parts.I do like my bike running clean and flawlessly but I strongly believe that this type of bikes should have stayed simple.That said all other brands including GG meet euro 4 with carbs, why not Ktm group?
Click to expand...

In 2020 come euro 5 ,and then the carburetors will not be able to cover it .The ktm want to be first with TPi ,in this 2 years they'll improve their 2-stroke injections .The other brands will wait until the last moment ,because they don't have solution yet .Before 10 years everybody said ,that fuel injection on 4 stroke motocrosser are hard to maintence and very complicated ,but now Fi is a standart for 4 strokes.
 
Getoviq95 said:
exc 300 2018 is 103kg ,3kg over than 2017 ,but 2 kg down than new Gasgas.
-low fuel consumption AWESOME!
-no pre mix fuel Kinda Cool. Not a big deal to most.
-80:1 fuel/oil ratio vs 50:1 for Gasgas Negligible cost
-no jettings No way to repair or diagnose damaged system on side of trail.
-doesn't matter on what elevation do you ride ,the engine runs always with the same power No way to repair or diagnose damaged system on side of trail.
-No flooding when flipping over the bike AWESOME!
-the price will be 1000$ over than Gasgas ,but Ktm have a dealer in every country ,and the parts come on a next day .Plus more aftermarket and second hand parts .And Ktm is easy to reselling. Positives cancel out the negatives. GasGas parts are easy to get from any competent dealer.

The choice will be difficult !I still loving Gasgas ,they have something special/something magical in their bikes ,but i also like the inovations of new ktm .The inovations rotate the world !
Click to expand...

Remember there is more to think about than just the sum of the parts. KTM is still using their WP Suspension. GasGas is onto KYB. In many peoples opinion the Gassers handle better, higher quality parts, and better build quality. I'm not saying which bike you should buy. I'm just saying I know which one I'll be buying. (Hint: It's not orange)
 
I'd say for all you KTM haters is if it wasn't for them we'd all be riding MX and spending money to get it to work in the woods with kick starts + all GG's, Beta's, Sherco's and so on would still (most likely) be an exotic. I hear things why like a KTM when you can love a GG's, I have a 13 300xc and love it + it does everything I want it to do and more and I beat the crapp out of every weekend. And you all can say KTM's QC suck's I'd like to see GG, Beta and Sherco put out as many bike a year as KTM does with no problems. Jap bikes have their problems too and with that being said I will be getting a GG XC300 and hope to love it and beat the crap out of it.
 
Really how many fi bikes you know failed on a trail and had to be repaired? :confused: Technology needed or not will always give the edge in a competitive market
 
stabak said:
Really how many fi bikes you know failed on a trail and had to be repaired? :confused: Technology needed or not will always give the edge in a competitive market
Click to expand...

My 09 husky and 12 ktm come to mind, no trail side fix (your screwed).
At least half dozen fellow racers I know.
A no expense spared race bike for ML.
FI is coming to save the 2t, but I'll wait.
 
stabak said:
Really how many fi bikes you know failed on a trail and had to be repaired? :confused: Technology needed or not will always give the edge in a competitive market
Click to expand...

Many...

I disagree that technology will always give an edge in a competitive market. If FI 2T bikes were so much better we would have seen them a long time ago. I don't believe for a second that this technology would have been released had it not been for Euro5 standards coming up. KTM is only releasing so early to fool people into thinking they are on the cutting edge of innovation. Sherco has been done their FI system for a while. And OSSA was running 2T FI half a decade ago (it never sold well)

Competitive markets are driven by giving people value for their money. FI is being forced on us by emission standards. I for one don't see the value in this decision. I don't hate KTM. In fact I own one. A FI 690. But I'm ok with the FI because its an adventure bike to me.

Call me old school but I prefer my coffee black and my dirtbike carbureted.
 
Well I'm an old school too but I've had this discussion many times before on other motorbikes. Fuel Injection, ABS, traction control,anti wheelie, exup systems and e-valves, pumps, e-suspension, ram air... you name it. Next thing you know it's an industry standard. What makes you think the same won't happen to pricey 2T enduro bikes?

Bet in 2 years we will be exchanging maps and e-PV setups for that crappy low end throttle response
 
Last edited:
stabak said:
Really how many fi bikes you know failed on a trail and had to be repaired? :confused: Technology needed or not will always give the edge in a competitive market
Click to expand...

At least a few, in the small group of FI bikes I've seen. Not deal breakers, but still issues.

Mostly just issues with fuel supply via the injector filter blocking up.

For me, I don't like the system as a whole. Fuel pump, oil pump, more sensors, more wiring harness, more complicated ecu.. just more to fault find and trouble shoot in the event that something does fail.

Time will iron out most of the issues, either with updates or preventative measures.. But until you put a large number of bikes into the market it's hard to establish how well they'll truly hold up in real world environment, in the hands of the average punter. I foresee a few teething issues in the present, but likely more so in 5 years time when they've become 'used' bikes.
 
stabak said:
Well I'm an old school too but I've had this discussion many times before on other motorbikes. Fuel Injection, ABS, traction control,anti wheelie, exup systems and e-valves, pumps, e-suspension, ram air... you name it. Next thing you know it's an industry standard. What makes you think the same won't happen to pricey 2T enduro bikes?

Bet in 2 years we will be exchanging maps and e-PV setups for that crappy low end throttle response
Click to expand...

I do agree with you. I know it is coming. And I'll accept it only because I'm being forced to. I guess I'm just frustrated because I believe in a free capitalist market on powersports. The market and manufactures should be allowed to make these kinds of decisions. ABS and Traction Control is one thing. That would have come along without government involvement. But these Euro5 and CARB standards being forced on dirtbikes and chainsaws? C'mon! How much smog and crap can we really be producing?

I'd almost be willing to bet a paycheck that the waste and smog produced by the production of all these extra components (AIS, Exup, TPI) outweighs the smog our bikes and saws would have produced without them.

I love some of the electronic gadgetry on my 690. I can ride around charging my phone on a USB socket in my dash, wearing a heated jacket, and remapping my ECU for a bad tank of gas with the flick of a switch. Its awesome. But that's a streetbike, and that crap should stay on the street.

Leave my dirtbike simple. I don't want all this extra non performance stuff.
 
I tend to agree with you. How much enforcement is being done to improve fuel efficiency of airline jets. the FI pumps also seem to be replaceable only, you will not be able to open them up and fix/recondition them if they are faulty, just replace and add to the landfill.
that been said i think the same discussions were had when there was a switch from points to cdi. with time the FI will become extremely reliable and we will benefit from the additional mileage.

It is however unfortunate that this does not solve my biggest 2T gripe - the damn big exhaust pipe down there where the rocks are.
 
swazi_matt said:
I tend to agree with you. How much enforcement is being done to improve fuel efficiency of airline jets. the FI pumps also seem to be replaceable only, you will not be able to open them up and fix/recondition them if they are faulty, just replace and add to the landfill.
that been said i think the same discussions were had when there was a switch from points to cdi. with time the FI will become extremely reliable and we will benefit from the additional mileage.

It is however unfortunate that this does not solve my biggest 2T gripe - the damn big exhaust pipe down there where the rocks are.
Click to expand...

I can say that airlines are squeezing every single percent out of their current fleets. The higher the price of fuel, the higher the price of travel. This is why the 787, 777X, 737Max as well as new and updated Airbus models are being designed and sold. Boeing recently released an improvement package that provides 2% fuel burn per seat on the 777, and it is a big deal.

http://awin.aviationweek.com/Articl...cac5-b58f-490a-961e-c58bb5b4c051/Default.aspx

DF-777Upgrade.jpg
 
They're maxing fuel efficiency for profitability, not emissions reductions.

I wonder what emission controls are forced upon commercial aircraft jet engine manufacturers? I suspect none.

I'm also curious as to the amount of emissions produced by one 787 transatlantic flight versus a year's worth of emissions for all 2-t off-road bikes in Europe and the Americas.

It seems the international technocrats pick and choose who emission reductions apply to. Illogical madness I say.

Rant over, back to your scheduled programming ...
 
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