2010 EC 300 engine taming mods. Which order?

[theboogieman]

Hi all,
this thread is similer to the 'six days hits too hard' thread, but not close enough to hijack or just follow that one.

My ec 300 is a pussy cat in the tight stuff as is my wr250f.
Both are fine for my level of talent (low).
The fun and games start when I get to more open ground, the wr dosn't change as the revs rise, it just keeps pulling smoothly.
As most on here know, the ec dosn't do this.

The best way I can describe the difference is.. I can ride the wr for twice as long as the ec before I am wrecked.
As I havn't had the ec long I am aware that some of the differences maybe set up related and not just engine.
(the ec gives me arm pump, the wr dosn't)

I like the light feeling the ec has over the wr.
So much so that I am considering trading in the ec 300 2t for an ec 250 4t.

But before I go down that road I would like to look into taming the ec with mods that will soften the overall feel and be reversable as I learn to use the power safely.

So....

What I am asking is...
Which of these mods that Juan knight (Davids brother) our gasgas dealer on the Island, has recomended, should I do first?

I have already fitted a slow throttle.

1, Suspension set up, valved softer and lowered (the lower height is a confidence thing ~ I ride trials a lot more than anything else so rarely sit down)
And the sachs are like rocks compared to the wrs.

2, Trusty adjustable power valve.
Apparently this can be almost set to a flat trials like response and increased as desired.

3, squish set up and raise base gasket. Lowers compression?

4, flywheel weight.

5, gearing. I am unsure which way to go with this, I have fitted a 12t front instead of the 13t which has helped with obstacles at slower speeds.
I was thinking of also going to a 50t rear which will again lower the overall top speed, but may contribute to mad accellaration when a handfull is given at the wrong time.
Would a higher gearing with higher unused top speed give a softer hit at slow speeds?

6, spacer behing the reeds. This softens the hit??

If anyone has any other suggestions please add them.

If I think I can get the bike to behave like my wr but without the weight penalty then I will keep her.

So, which of the above (or other) mods will be the most helpfull?

Cheers troops,
baz

 

[Jakobi]

You're comparing a 250F against a 300 2T. Peak power will never ever even be close on the two. Your 300 is more like a 450F once the revs start to climb.

IMO 13/50 is good gearing. Gives you a useful 1st gear, while not making everything too short and snappy. Sometimes 13/48 is harder as its on and off the pipe more often.

Squish setup will give you more power everywhere. Lowering compression will allow the engine to rev further. Raising the cylinder (more gaskets) will also favour top end power at the expense of bottom end. Removing the reed spacer will make the bike hit harder off the bottom.

Ignition timing? Are you running in rain or sun mode? Jetting? Maybe switch to something like the NEDx range and run it a bit richer than ideal to produce more torque and less zing. A richer main will tame down the top end significantly too. Fly Wheel Weight, even if you have a 2k3 ignition some people here are using one and enjoying it. But in the end its all throttle control, clutch control, and ride time. If you want to avoid the hit, gear it a bit taller and change gears before it comes on song. Setting up the suspension etc will make the bike handle better and won't beat you up as much. It may help in putting the power to the ground and inspire more confidence to handle the hit.

Two very different beasts. I actually own both bikes myself, and now find the 250F unexciting in comparison. It is easy to ride all day though.

 

[Fred1956]

Another option is to change it to a 250 2T. I find that I can ride a 250 a lot longer than I can a 300 in the same terrain. Not a night & day difference until the end of the ride and then you realize you 'just aren't as tired' on the 250. IMO the 300 has enough torque that it works on you a bit at a time. I do love the 330 low end power and if I weren't riding hard it would be a different story. I think GMP said in another thread 'a 300 is better for trailing and the 250 is better at racing'. To each their own but the 250 lets me go faster longer

 

[(F5)]

Flywheel weight would be my first choice. But obviously run it in rain mode. Make sure jetting is slightly rich & you could put a travel limiter in the throttle.

But where's the fun in that?

 

[Jakobi]

Another option is to change it to a 250 2T. I find that I can ride a 250 a lot longer than I can a 300 in the same terrain. Not a night & day difference until the end of the ride and then you realize you 'just aren't as tired' on the 250. IMO the 300 has enough torque that it works on you a bit at a time. I do love the 330 low end power and if I weren't riding hard it would be a different story. I think GMP said in another thread 'a 300 is better for trailing and the 250 is better at racing'. To each their own but the 250 lets me go faster longer

As you know Fred, I made this change myself and agree. I didn't suggest it to the OP though as it appears to me that its the aggression/hit that they find intimidating, and in my experience the 250 has more of this, and the lack of grunt off the bottom means you really need to show it more revs more often.

Without a doubt the 300 was the easier bike to ride around off idle all day. If you tried to ride it hard (race it) then it would get tiring. I like to ride aggressively so much like yourself the 250 fits much better. I can sing it along carrying more revs without feeling as fatigued at the end of the trail/day.

 

[Mazikeen]

Hi all,

1, Suspension set up, valved softer and lowered (the lower height is a confidence thing ~ I ride trials a lot more than anything else so rarely sit down)
And the sachs are like rocks compared to the wrs.

Playing here will certainly make the bike more to your taste, but not address your primary power concern, I think you could do an aweful lot with your suspension with adjustments which only costs you time, and usually you come out on the other side much more comfortable with the bike, as well as more intimate with its maintenance and mechanics. If you document your changes and results progressively, you will also find that information extremely valuable to a professional tuner if you do end up have its final tweaks performed there.

2, Trusty adjustable power valve.
Apparently this can be almost set to a flat trials like response and increased as desired.

Yes, you can truly change the nature of the engine over 3.5k rpm on average, but on the cost side you would see much more results by merely sticking the PV you currently have as a stock setup in the down low rpm position and evaluating the performance you have there before you invest money, you may find it not to your liking, and spending hundreds to make it adjustable would not likely that much better than your free diagnosis setup to justify the cost.

3, squish set up and raise base gasket. Lowers compression?

Again, alot of effort, time, money invested to yield very little real world results other than some frustrating time getting the carb setup to find only the motor in its entire powerband is overall weaker, while the hit you struggle with still exists in the same amount, only that percentage across the powerband is varied.

4, flywheel weight.

This will certainly be the most cost effective item you could invest in that would certainly, and with well documented results slow the "hit" while maintaining the bikes overall power, you would also find some very appreciated low speed "chuggability"

5, gearing. I am unsure which way to go with this, I have fitted a 12t front instead of the 13t which has helped with obstacles at slower speeds.
I was thinking of also going to a 50t rear which will again lower the overall top speed, but may contribute to mad accellaration when a handfull is given at the wrong time.
Would a higher gearing with higher unused top speed give a softer hit at slow speeds?

The opposite is the end result, going to your 12 tooth front certainly makes the tight single track more pleasant and increases the "chuggability" but actually gives the hit a "leverage" advantage making it more violent and quicker to run through than taller gearing, a flywheel weight as noted above would accomplish much more with the suggestion of running as tall a gearing as is feasible that allows you to enjoy your worst case single track with minimal clutch feathering.

6, spacer behing the reeds. This softens the hit??

This is true, a two stroke in nature will develop a softer hit and a more "electric" motor type power delivery as you increase the crankcase volume, which is accomplished when adding a spacer between the jug and the reed cage. This is much much more noticeable and applied with great effect on older two strokes without a power valve, on your bike it would be noticeable in a very small extent and alot of trial and error may be involved to yield a noticeable result..

If anyone has any other suggestions please add them.

If I think I can get the bike to behave like my wr but without the weight penalty then I will keep her.

So, which of the above (or other) mods will be the most helpfull?

Cheers troops,
baz

My best suggestion, I think you should evaluate a GG 200, I have embarrased many many 250s both 2 and 4 stroke on my evolution era 200 Yamaha, and still find it the most practical, lightweight woods machine period, the lightness, low center of gravity, low seat height, exceptionally tractable power is the best balance of a fun to rid recreational bike I have ever experienced, I am sticking with my 300 becuase I bought it and thankfully, my wife would never even know to read these forums, but knowing what i know now, I wish for a 2011 GG200 ISDE instead of my 300.

I very much enjoy the 300, I look at it with admiration, respect and at times awe of its capability, it truly is a bike far more capable that i aspire to be. I've been quite hushed lately as I've had very little to pass along as your complaint listed has hurt me so often I cannot go into them all, currently my left wrist is recovering well, and I have close to full strength back and I am being quite easy on it as I have prepaid for my Shane Watts school in Oct, a exciting opportunity I have been wishing for for longer than I can even recall.

I went to a local hard track and had some other old farts watch me, my decades of riding my 200 led to some very predictable habits, none were truly in bad riding form, but did not account in any form for the power valve or extreme horsepower this bike has compared to my 200. I found I was very very consistently rolling into the power before the apex of the curve, which on a predictable non power valve 200 and proper weight transfer on a machine of evolution linkage design led to a loose rear end and some nice speed through the apex with an agressively fast exit speed compared to my competition, on this machine merely squatted her ass, lightened the front end and of course, blew my front end out putting me down time and time again. hey!! at least I figured it out. I chose to post here mainly to empathize with your concern and tell you truthfully, a flywheel weight will do everything you want within the limits of what is possible, I also have the larger pv cover, although it yeilded no discernable difference, perhaps cumulatively, the weight, pv cover and what i deem as a "fat" midrange transition across the carb has mellowed this machine out as much as possible. The rest, is up to me to relearn some ingrained riding styles and of course to back off a bit on my aggressiveness and start focusing on riding more my age......

 

[Jakobi]

More good info re riding style. Particularly the getting on the throttle in corners. Making the move from 250F to 300T this was super super noticable. I was always rolling the 250F on before the apex and WOT as I'd exit a turn. Do this on the 300 and it just hooks up and you come out on the back wheel, or it breaks traction and launches you in another direction.

 

[AZRickD]

Having ridden both (and I'm not very good), I am astonished at all this 300 fear. My biggest concern is that the 300 will feel too docile (read "unexciting") compared to my pipey and modded DE250.

 

[Jakobi]

Having ridden both (and I'm not very good), I am astonished at all this 300 fear. My biggest concern is that the 300 will feel too docile (read "unexciting") compared to my pipey and modded DE250.

And it probably will Rick The 250 has a much more agressive power curve and makes just as much power as the 300 (except it comes on harder and later). Not to mention your DE will probably have a 2K2.

However, we are comparing a 300T to a 250F. Not even so much a comparison. The OP just wanted to know ways to tame the 300 down and make it a bit smoother. I think there's pleanty of useful information on how to mellow the bike, but a certain element of it is also held in the riding technique.

 

[theboogieman]

Thanks for the great info guys,
Gives me a lot to have a think about.

To clarify, I don't have 'problems' with the 300 and am not scared of it (well, ok a bit, hahah)
Also I'm not coming 'from' the 250f to the 300t, I got both earlier this year and will still be using them back to back for the rest of the year.
Both are still new to me.

At the start of the year, I got back into 'enduro' bikes
as I had got back into trials a couple of years ago.
The remit was to pick up and try out a few differing bikes to find something that suited me.
I'm nearly 50 so know my limits and am looking to find a newish bike I can see out my riding time on. (hopefully awhile yet).


The 250f motor has so far impressed me with it's electric style power delivery.
the 300 i like for the handling and lightness.
I've had to bench press both of them a few times and it's a no contest win for the 300.
Both are great in tight sections (my favoured playground, the fast stuff is not a happy place for me)

My original post was to see if the best of both worlds could be had by smoothing out the 300 to a more electric style also.
Before I discounted it and carried on looking.

I have noticed that whilst it is cool to lug the 300 around in a gear higher, it never feels happy.
when it is on the pipe and singing it digs in and rides fantasticly.
Unfortunately everything is happening far too quickly for me by then.

It may be that descretion is the better part of valour,
and I accept that the 300 is too much bike for my needs.
Maybe have a look at, as suggested, a 200 2t.
I am still considering getting a new wr250f or a gg250f, but both are still quite heavy.

If anyone has any ideas on other makes or other gg models that might be better suited?

May end up putting a big tank, hand gaurds and lights on the txt pro yet.

 

[Jakobi]

You definitely can smooth it out some more. Try a flywheel weight and a few different jetting combos. You'd be surprised how much difference a needle change (or even clip positon) can make to the power delivery. Mine is set up so clean and smooth off the bottom it feels just as natural to lug as it does to scream.

 

[Caravan Monster]

The extra reed block spacer mod was the most effective change I made when I had a 300 (specs in jetting section) It calmed things down considerably. Try thin oil and a bigger air gap in the forks and back off the shock plenty. A two stroke is never going to be as linear as a four stroke, and the power delivery becomes less linear on smaller two strokes.

For what it's worth, I went from an EC300 to EC200. The terrain in the midlands is different to what I can remember of the IoM - most enduros around here take place on farmland (mostly clay) and through the trees - not a lot of rocks. 200 = ride it 300 = fight it. Younger, fitter and more talented riders might be able to race a 300, but it was too much bike for me. The 300 was a more capable trail bike, but I don't really care what I'm riding on the trail anymore - it's not a competition, just chill out and enjoy being out there and riding.

 

[gasser]

It has been my experience having tried every suggestion here that a simple needle change can have the greatest change in bike ride-ability. To make your 300 more like a 4stroke you need to soften its power and spread it out over a wider rpm range. There are a number of ways to do this but jetting is the most effective and cheapest. An expansion chamber change is expensive but can have a big effect - the top-end pipe will spread the rev range and move the hit higher where you won't use it as much. Gearing also has a huge impact but can be tricky. Going higher will make things happen less quickly and therefore make the bike easier to ride as a general rule. But we don't ride general rules we ride trails so if you already use second gear a lot don't gear higher. If you do you may have to start using first gear and that will really tire you out because the motor will then be into the meat of its power and really jerky.
I'm one of those folks that could ride a 250f easier and longer than any 2stroke but I much prefer a 2stroke because on those elusive days when the conditions are right and I'm in the zone I can twist the right hand harder and still have a bike that challenges me. Its what some people call the "FUN FACTOR".

 

[theboogieman]

Thanks again guys for taking the time to reply with the info.

Other than the flywheel weight, Jetting seems to be the top suggestion for getting the power smoothly from idle to full on.

I had a look at the various jets and things in my carb to see what is what.
I have:
40 pilot jet
175 main jet
n3eg needle in the 4th clip up (or 2nd down, there are 6 grooves)

I'm in the IOM which is UK. So sea level (below if it dosn't stop bleeding raining)
weather is never more than 20c (although I can't remember that day)

Can anyone recomend advise on changes to this set up for the required effect?

Cheers
Baz

 

[Jakobi]

Thats a pretty angry setup. The N3 needles have a big transition from rich to lean in the mid range which makes them hit hard. The bike is probably a bit rich off the bottom with a G diameter needle too. Fair bit of burbling up to 1/8th throttle and then a rocket ship. Lean main should give big over rev too.

I'd suggest trying a 42 NEDJ in clip 2 and 172 main

 

[theboogieman]

"Fair bit of burbling up to 1/8th throttle and then a rocket ship"

That's pretty much an exact description of the bike.

I'll hunt out those jets and needle and have a play.

Are the needle numbers unique to gg or the carb type, and are there sets available with a range in?

Did I see a list on here somewhere a list with the different needles and their sizes?
When I have the carb apart again, what height/position am i looking for with the float?

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[Fred1956]

Float level
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11886
one needle chart
http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11886

Lots of Jakobi posts regarding different needles, Suzuki needles cross over also

 

[theboogieman]

Cheers for the links fred, although the second link is to the same thread.

The float level read is a good one.
Is the measurement for the float taken between the centre of the float (side view) and the base of the body of the carb?

 

[Jakobi]

13383-37FL0 NEEDLE, JET (NEDW)
13383-37FM0 NEEDLE, JET (NEDJ)
13383-37FD0 NEEDLE, JET (NECW)
13383-37FE0 NEEDLE, JET (NECJ)

All available online through a quick google search on the above part numbers, or through your local suzi dealer. Sometimes they are on back order and take a couple weeks though as they're pretty popular (with the orange and blue crowd too).

 

[Jakobi]

Cheers for the links fred, although the second link is to the same thread.

The float level read is a good one.
Is the measurement for the float taken between the centre of the float (side view) and the base of the body of the carb?

Re float height. 4th picture in first post where the carb is at 45 degrees and the floats just resting on the needle. The height is measured from the base of teh carb body (under AL1) to the lowest part of the float.