450 Enduro wont start / no spark

[Vinny]

Now what ?

Well , my GG dealer here in Austin has given up. Bike has been there for 3 weeks. They have looked into all the electronics and cant find the source for not having spark.
They wont buy the diagnostic computer because it might not tell them the problem. They say that that computer is mostly for FI diagnostics.

What do I do w/ the bike now ? Frustrated !! I only had one good ride on it. It was great for 3 days and then just stopped. No spark.

I guess I just have to give it up and sell for parts or start buying parts that might be effected ( $ 600 ECU, coil, etc ).

Any ideas that haven't been placed on this thread already ?

Thanks,
Vinny
Austin, TX

 

[bergerhag]

What year is your 450? Does it have an ordinary ignition coil or the coil-on-plug setup?

Now, bring it back home and we'll have it sorted. We can come up with lots of ideas, but with no feedback on test results, we are blind. Obviously your dealer hasn't tested everything, else you would have found the problem.
I have access to a '04 and a '05 for reference, so bring it home and we'll start from there.

 

[iancp5]

I've just managed to stop mine while working on it!
Seem to have a loose connection on the main ECU connector somewhere. I switch on and no fuel pump whir, but if I poke my fingers in and wiggle the main ecu connector it works, until I wiggle it again etc. It wouldn't be so bad if there was room to work. I just don't see how I'm going to probe and find the problem. There is zero slack on the main harness to access to even have a good look. Think I might cry.

Anyone know how much a new harness is approximately?​

 

[Vinny]

What year is your 450? Does it have an ordinary ignition coil or the coil-on-plug setup?

Now, bring it back home and we'll have it sorted. We can come up with lots of ideas, but with no feedback on test results, we are blind. Obviously your dealer hasn't tested everything, else you would have found the problem.
I have access to a '04 and a '05 for reference, so bring it home and we'll start from there.

This is my only option. I'll go pick it up Saturday and start looking into it myself. I really appreciate your help on this. I have basic mech skills and would have to use your knowledge base.
I really hate that my dealer doesn't have the pride to accept the challenge; specially since they just became a GG dealer this year. They want to focus on 2 strokes due to the lack of sales on 4 strokes.

 

[bergerhag]

I've just managed to stop mine while working on it!
Seem to have a loose connection on the main ECU connector somewhere. I switch on and no fuel pump whir, but if I poke my fingers in and wiggle the main ecu connector it works, until I wiggle it again etc. It wouldn't be so bad if there was room to work. I just don't see how I'm going to probe and find the problem. There is zero slack on the main harness to access to even have a good look. Think I might cry.

Anyone know how much a new harness is approximately?​

remove the ecu from the tank, and connect a test ligth to fuel connector.
[edit] And leave the tank off of course

 

[mrkartoom]

I take it you hear the fuel pump start up, the starter is cranking over fine, and everything looks good just no spark?

I have to assume the dealer verified your plug wire is good? That's always the first place I check when I have no spark and 9/10 the cause. I haven't seen this mentioned here yet. I've seen many a cap-to-wire connection go bad due to an open or high-resistance. Sometime all it takes is cutting the wire a bit and re-attaching the cap. I've also seen coil mounts corrode and lose ground. I'm guessing they checked that as well?

 

[Qui-gon]

Everything runs through the ECU. The only switched input it has is on pin 26. The sequence is roughly as follows:

Turn key on this signals the ECU on pin 26 with 12v, supplies the starter button and the 2 relay coils under the seat (fan and fuel pump)with 12v.

On receipt of the on signal at pin 26 the ECU sends pin 19 to 0v thereby turning on the fuel pump relay. This switches on the pump, enables the lighting circuits and supplies power to the instrument panel. The pump runs for a few seconds then the ECU raises pin 19 to +12v thereby switching the relay off which in turn switches of lights feeds and the instrument panel.

The only things that bring the pump etc back on is either turning off the ignition switch and back on ( soft reset of the ECU) or as Bergerhag says, the pickup sensor being triggered by rotating the engine by kick or electric starter.

The output to trigger the coil is on pin 20 from memory. There should be a pulsed output on there when the engine is turning between 12v and 0v. 0v corresponds to "bang" time. The charging current for the coil is set internally by the ECU. This determines the width of the charging pulse. A scope or possibly analogue meter would show this.

If you need to go into it even deeper the chip inside the ECU that triggers the spark is a VBS025MSP by ST electronics. The data for it is easily found on the net.

Hope this helps

 

[iancp5]

Qui-gon,

That's really useful to both of us but one bit doesn't seem logical;

"The only things that bring the pump etc back on is either turning off the ignition switch and back on ( soft reset of the ECU) or as Bergerhag says, the pickup sensor being triggered by rotating the engine by kick or electric starter."

How is fuel pressure maintained when in a running or waiting to start?

 

[iancp5]

remove the ecu from the tank, and connect a test ligth to fuel connector.
[edit] And leave the tank off of course

Yeah was coming to the conclusion that is the only way. Even then it will be a PITA probing the connector on the harness unless I loosen the whole thing so I can move it to a sensible angle.

It's really annoying because I'm so busy at the moment and wont get to it for weeks. I thought it was quick job replacing the reg/rec. I only disturbed the ECU because I thought the reg/rec was the ecu and looked in the wrong place! Now it's going to take quite a while instead of the hour before work In was hoping for. Oh well it would've happened someday and better at home than middle of nowhere.

 

[Qui-gon]

Just to clarify........after the pump has been running for a few seconds you hear a click and it stops. You may not have noticed the lights feed and instrument panel go off if you press the starter button straight away. As soon as you press the button or kick it over the fuel pump and associated circuits come back on. I think its to stop the fuel pump and any lights you may have on draining what is a small battery very quickly. The trigger for this return of power to the fuel pump and other circuits is the pulser circuit on the alternator. As soon as it's signal is toggled signifying engine rotation the ECU turns it all back on.
As an aside this may be the reason some 450s with the marrelli efi start of the kickstarter and others don't or are an effort.

 

[Fred1956]

Qui-gon,

That's really useful to both of us but one bit doesn't seem logical;

"The only things that bring the pump etc back on is either turning off the ignition switch and back on ( soft reset of the ECU) or as Bergerhag says, the pickup sensor being triggered by rotating the engine by kick or electric starter."

How is fuel pressure maintained when in a running or waiting to start?

If I may, When engine is running fuel pump operation is maintained by pickup trigger signal being active (crank sensor sees engine rotation). In a 'wait to start' situation fuel pressure is maintained from the initial 2 second key on prime and unless injector (or other connection) is bleeding pressure down, then fuel pressure stays active even though pump doesn't run. The 2 second prime at key on is to build pressure back to spec IF there is a loss during sitting idle with engine off.
While this is probably not Vinny's problem it could be yours. Vinny has a 'no spark' situation. I understand the operation of basic ECU operation for fuel injection and I sure wish Vinny was closer because I know I could sort it out even though there are several things involved. And it appears Qui-gon has an ECU pin out.
Fuel injection is simple even in it's complexity. Does that make sense? Hope I helped

 

[Vinny]

If I may, When engine is running fuel pump operation is maintained by pickup trigger signal being active (crank sensor sees engine rotation). In a 'wait to start' situation fuel pressure is maintained from the initial 2 second key on prime and unless injector (or other connection) is bleeding pressure down, then fuel pressure stays active even though pump doesn't run. The 2 second prime at key on is to build pressure back to spec IF there is a loss during sitting idle with engine off.
While this is probably not Vinny's problem it could be yours. Vinny has a 'no spark' situation. I understand the operation of basic ECU operation for fuel injection and I sure wish Vinny was closer because I know I could sort it out even though there are several things involved. And it appears Qui-gon has an ECU pin out.
Fuel injection is simple even in it's complexity. Does that make sense? Hope I helped

Thanks for all the info. I have plenty to look into w/ your suggestions. I cant thank the forum enough.
If I cant get it sorted I might just drive to Arkansas to get it fixed.......good excuse to do some trails there

 

[Fred1956]

Thanks for all the info. I have plenty to look into w/ your suggestions. I cant thank the forum enough.
If I cant get it sorted I might just drive to Arkansas to get it fixed.......good excuse to do some trails there

Come on Vinny, I've got 300 acres of trails out the back door!

 

[iancp5]

Fred,

Are you saying; while engine is turning the fuel pump is running constantly? When you switch on only but do not start, it just runs for a second or two to pressurize the line?
I "assumed" (for no particular reason ) that it ran only when fuel pressure dropped.


Thanks

 

[jostby]

The pump will run at all times while the engine is running. Same with your car.

 

[Fred1956]

The pump will run at all times while the engine is running. Same with your car.

This is true in most systems, some do have a bypass or return line others are 'closed loop' systems. In a car system, I believe, it is as much a safety item as anything (if engine dies in a collision and fuel lines rupture you could have a fuel pump spraying fuel at a rapid rate) where on a motorcycle it is equally about conserving battery voltage. All the systems will be live with engine running and sending RPM signal of some kind to the ECU

 

[Vinny]

Magneti mirelli ?

This might be a stupid question :

Would a '02 CDI (Magneti Mirelli IAV 15P) work on my bike ('05 FSE 450). Looked it up and its the same number from '08 on down.

I havent had a chance to pick up the bike. I started looking for used parts that I might need. Found this one in Germany:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110432428828&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:DE:1123

I also would like to find a spark plug wire for an '05 450 . I looked on the GoFaster web site but couldnt figure out the part number / price.

Any assist would be appreciated.

I'll be getting into the bike Friday.

Vinny

 

[flybars]

Hey Vinny, did U look into those two small relays that GMP mentioned? Nick is the Guru on the GG 450's here. The first thing he recommended was to replace the stock ones with the Napa brand AR614. They will fail, and I remember Nick saying, if the bike won't start, just switch them around. That U only need the one to keep the bike running.
It would be worth a try if U haven't done this yet. Good luck.

 

[Vinny]

Hey Vinny, did U look into those two small relays that GMP mentioned? Nick is the Guru on the GG 450's here. The first thing he recommended was to replace the stock ones with the Napa brand AR614. They will fail, and I remember Nick saying, if the bike won't start, just switch them around. That U only need the one to keep the bike running.
It would be worth a try if U haven't done this yet. Good luck.[/QUOTE

Its on the to do list as soon as I get it home from my useless GG dealer here in Austin.
Thanks.
Vinny

 

[bergerhag]

This might be a stupid question :

Would a '02 CDI (Magneti Mirelli IAV 15P) work on my bike ('05 FSE 450). Looked it up and its the same number from '08 on down.

I havent had a chance to pick up the bike. I started looking for used parts that I might need. Found this one in Germany:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110432428828&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:DE:1123

I also would like to find a spark plug wire for an '05 450 . I looked on the GoFaster web site but couldnt figure out the part number / price.

Any assist would be appreciated.

I'll be getting into the bike Friday.

Vinny

Since you have a '05 there will be no ordinary spark plug wire. You should have the coil-on-plug setup, and the wiring harness plugs right into the coil(which is incorporated in the spark plug cap).