fixing clutch drag when hot.

[stainlesscycle]

here's the symptoms:

i can kick bike in gear for dead engine start, have bike running, i click into gear, with clutch pulled, hit kill button. i keep clutch pulled and kick it and it starts fine.


but:

if i stall on the trail, in gear, pull clutch, and kick, clutch drags, and won't start. i need to shift to neutral to start it. this is a pain in the ass. i thought the plates would wear a bit and fix this, but it has not happened yet.


so, i'm assuming my clutch needs bled, and i've not been successful back bleeding it. i was thinking if i remove slave cylinder from bike, put a c-clamp on it, pump it once or twice so it's tight, then crack bleeder wouldn't the air be forced out of the line? can't figure out where air bubble is....

is there a foolproof way to bleed it?

 

[Fred1956]

I wonder if you have the dreaded "basket notches"? With engine running and no load conditions, the clutch could fully release and hitting the kill switch would leave it released BUT when stalling with clutch released the plates could sitting against the basket & not release when the lever is pulled.
Just a thought to check on. Good luck

 

[stainlesscycle]

basket is not notched - i checked in november or so..

 

[GMP]

Actually that sounds somewhat normal. It should be able to start in gear but it is harder. The idea of holding the clutch in during a kill for a dead engine HS start is to keep the plates "loose" and not stuck right? If the clutch system was leaking or needed bleeding it wouldn't matter, it would drag in both cases. If the master was leaking it would be worse the longer the lever was held in. Backbleed is easy, be sure you have free play in the lever. If the master cyl piston is not past the hole in the master cyl casting, no joy.

 

[Bryan]

here's the symptoms:

i can kick bike in gear for dead engine start, have bike running, i click into gear, with clutch pulled, hit kill button. i keep clutch pulled and kick it and it starts fine.


but:

if i stall on the trail, in gear, pull clutch, and kick, clutch drags, and won't start. i need to shift to neutral to start it. this is a pain in the ass. i thought the plates would wear a bit and fix this, but it has not happened yet.


so, i'm assuming my clutch needs bled, and i've not been successful back bleeding it. i was thinking if i remove slave cylinder from bike, put a c-clamp on it, pump it once or twice so it's tight, then crack bleeder wouldn't the air be forced out of the line? can't figure out where air bubble is....

is there a foolproof way to bleed it?

Mine does the same thing. The basket is fine, no notches. Did it with new plates and worn out plates. Not sure there is a fix for it. I have heard of some trying different oils. Not sure if they had any success.

I have just chalked it up to a characteristic of my bike.

 

[Todd5774]

Mine does the same, find if I rock the bike backwards abit it seems to release the gear and able me to kick in gear, quicker than shifting to neutral.

 

[Rick]

I am in the same boat, I go throught the same routine as you for all dead engine starts. 90% of the time, I can start my bike in gear, if I stall it. All I really do is keep my clutch adjusted per my owners manual. I'm sure I have the old school basket! I've not opened up the clutch cover in a few years.

 

[AZRickD]

My clutch system works miraculously better when I bleed it.

I also use ATF in the tranny or ATF/Rotella.

 

[whodat]

dam it rick, you just need to go faster so your bike does not get so hot.

 

[stainlesscycle]

The idea of holding the clutch in during a kill for a dead engine HS start is to keep the plates "loose" and not stuck right?

correct. it works everytime. no problems with dead engine starts. i have freeplay at lever.


i can sometimes start it in gear if stall somewhere, but not always - depends on how tired i am or the angle i can get at the kicker.


i will try rocking bike a bit - there is nothing more frustrating than trying to find neutral/kicking when you stall.....

 

[whodat]

to be serious, I have a long kick start lever on the 250 and a short lever on the 300 and the 300 is easier to start when warm(note, I did not say easier to kick) some thing about shorter lever equals more speed on the starter shaft.

However I think it is more about the plates getting warm and expanding. As you know the gasgas hydro slave cylinder has very little excursion. so when the plates swell there is even less seperation of the plates with the lever pulled in.

The fix ? Magura makes different master cylinders with larger and smaller piston sizes that push different volumes of fluid. I am going to try a model with a larger piston. I'll let you know what I find.
BTW tried diff tranny oils with no real difference, how bout u guys?

 

[stainlesscycle]

The fix ? Magura makes different master cylinders with larger and smaller piston sizes that push different volumes of fluid. I am going to try a model with a larger piston. I'll let you know what I find.

i have a spare magura clutch master from a 2004 te450 - i should check and see what size piston it is - that would make a nice fix...


the clutch doesn't drag when i pull lever in and in gear at a stop - no lurching or fighting the bike. i can put it in 4th, pull clutch, get off bike, and push it backwards while running.... just 'drags' when it stalls and i try to kick it over, and it lurches/doesn't get enough piston velocity to start...

BTW tried diff tranny oils with no real difference, how bout u guys?

i've tried atf, maxima xtl, and amsoil 0w-40. the amsoil 0w-40 is the best for reducing drag, and i get nice even clutch feel...

 

[gasgasman]

There is an "adjustment" you can make on the clutch push rod.
I've never done it. But, supposedly you can use a valve adjusting shim from a four stroke motor to add length to the push rod.

 

[GMP]

That will not change the travel though, only the offset that the slave piston operates in. A common mod for some TE450 Huskys that break the slave cyl but not needed on the GG. Adjust the pin on the lever a couple turns in, just leave some free play. That will add just a little master cyl (and slave) travel.

 

[bitoman]

I have the same thing going on.You said it right,a real pain in the ass.I noticed that when I pull the clutch in at a stop,the idle will climb up after a few seconds and stabilize.If let some clutch out and hunker the engine down a bit,then pull clutch in again,the idle will slowly climb up again after a few seconds.Happens every time.Makes me think that its slow to fully release.Running rottella,basket not very notched.filed them down some anyway.Also noticed pushrod tip not so round anymore kind of flat/worn looking so I decided to make a very thin shim out of valve shim to compensate.It made no difference.Dont know what else to do.Its the only thing about this GasGas that disgusts me.

 

[GMP]

The hydro clutch will always move the slave/pushrod/pressureplate the same distance based on the master/slave cyl volume ratio. Any wear or pack thickness changes will be accomodated by fluid transfer back to the master in the released position. If its a real issue to you, experiment with the master cyl and find the point where the lever pin gives the most travel without bottomming the piston. Other than that the only way to get more travel is to increase the master cyl volume, which will also increase effort and alter engagement, making it more narrow relative to lever travel and farther out. JMO but I think its pretty good the way it is. I'd go through the clutch and check for a warped or burred plate. I found one in my '03. You could also play with pack thickness by fine tuning the spacer under the basket, like stainless did for using the Honda plates.

 

[stainlesscycle]

That will not change the travel though, only the offset that the slave piston operates in. A common mod for some TE450 Huskys that break the slave cyl but not needed on the GG. Adjust the pin on the lever a couple turns in, just leave some free play. That will add just a little master cyl (and slave) travel.

so to get maximum possible clutch travel:

adjust return pin (on back of perch) out all the way.
adjust pin on lever in as far as i can without binding against mc pin.
adjust return pin (on perch) back in so there is a tiny bit of slack between the lever adjuster pin and the mc cylinder.

this should give maximum clutch travel right? - need to have a bit of slack to accomodate for fluid swell when hot.

all this at the expense of lever/bar distance. puts lever further away from bar at rest.

 

[elemetal]

Seems as if GMP is on the right track, it's not about the disengagement but the plates sticking together when not loaded. Look for something that makes them not want to separate(burrs, ridges, maybe too smooth a finish on the steels) rather than more clutch action. I'd suggest a different oil but I see you've tried that. Seeing that many have this issue I wonder if it's how the plates move/shed oil that's causing the 'stiction' that's hard to overcome with the starter.

 

[stainlesscycle]

yeah, i was thinking of drilling the clutch hub for more oil flow, might help with plate stiction...

 

[BrentMartell]

My KTM 300, my buddies KTM 300, and my 2011 GG 300 all do the exact same thing. I have tried different oils but but found nothing worked as well or better than what I have always used. My KTM 125 does not seem to have this issue though. On another note my friends CR 250 and anothers RM 250 also drag as we have all experienced in this posting.

For dead engine starts I put the bike in gear, rev it up and ensure the clutch plates have fully disengaged. Shut it off, and then I use the e start and kick together. So far it has worked well.