GasGas Factory News ?
- Thread starter Dirt Dud
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Jacob 'Berg
Member
I doubt Johnny is running stock internals on his WP suspenders. Most of us plebians do not have thousands to shell out for suspension work of that magnitude. I agree all suspension benefits from set up and valving work, but once you start swapping out more than shims it gets costly.
hadfield4wd
New member
I'm just poking the bear! And suspension work doesn't cost thousands. But its the first thing I spend money on before any add ons etc. All the go fast parts are t worth anythjng if you can't put it down. All that to say I'll have less than $500 into my work.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Let's be fair... not all of them were a disaster
but I can only speak for 2011 and up. I understand that the older models did have some major problems.I had 3-310's that got the stuffing rode out of them and my TC250...an unreal bike, was used to win an Arena Cross championship.
We loaned the AMA an TE310 and Jack Penton rode the entire 2012 AMA Dual Sport series on it without any issues, other than trying to map the FI to match the FMF exhaust, that never panned out like it should.
There are still MANY 250/310 out there, being ridden and enjoyed (ask Jay Hall or Bill Farrell)....but on the same token, yes...we did see a fair amount of failures on a very wide scale on just plain ole stupid stuff. Some very small...and others catastrophic and yes... the largest number of failures were from bikes assembled during the same time the factory workers found out their jobs would be going to Austria. Of course...we found this out down the road.
The most common failures were... the starter drive on 310 (compression related), the wiring harness (connectors) gave issues, and the fuel pumps were pure junk (2011 models, ask me how I know
) So we are left to question...which engine did GG actually get? There were big changes from the 2012 to the 2013 model but when I asked this question of the export manager...he didn't have a clue. However they (GG) did receive all the technical updates and documented failures from the factory, in order to improve future production units.
Just some food for thought....Who said they would move forward with the old HSQ engine? Considering the long term relationship with Yamaha, would it be possible to see the new YZ250 FX engine mounted in a GG chassis?
Time will tell...
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Well....yeah! My feelings the same man, new products that require oil in the gas
There are 4 strokes of every color, sitting on dealers floors collecting dust. However, in a couple of years...bring the 310 into this country but only as a street legal dual sport...
VxZeroKnots
Gold Level Site Supporter
Let's be fair... not all of them were a disaster
I had 3-310's that got the stuffing rode out of them and my TC250...an unreal bike, was used to win an Arena Cross championship.
We loaned the AMA an TE310 and Jack Penton rode the entire 2012 AMA Dual Sport series on it without any issues, other than trying to map the FI to match the FMF exhaust, that never panned out like it should.
There are still MANY 250/310 out there, being ridden and enjoyed (ask Jay Hall or Bill Farrell)....but on the same token, yes...we did see a fair amount of failures on a very wide scale on just plain ole stupid stuff. Some very small...and others catastrophic and yes... the largest number of failures were from bikes assembled during the same time the factory workers found out their jobs would be going to Austria. Of course...we found this out down the road.
The most common failures were... the starter drive on 310 (compression related), the wiring harness (connectors) gave issues, and the fuel pumps were pure junk (2011 models, ask me how I know
So we are left to question...which engine did GG actually get? There were big changes from the 2012 to the 2013 model but when I asked this question of the export manager...he didn't have a clue. However they (GG) did receive all the technical updates and documented failures from the factory, in order to improve future production units.
Just some food for thought....Who said they would move forward with the old HSQ engine? Considering the long term relationship with Yamaha, would it be possible to see the new YZ250 FX engine mounted in a GG chassis?
Time will tell...
Was 2011 the first year of the x-lite 310? I'm sure the 2009/2010 used the same bottom end as the 450/510 and IIRC the 250 went to x-lite in 2010 but 2009- 250's were the same deal.
Anywho if those were considered problematic I must have gotten lucky, I had a 2009 that I loved and it never gave me any serious problems. The guy who owns it now still updates me every once in a while and it had north of 400 hours on it before he did a top end and a clutch. That bike was beat near to death when I sold it too
I heard the x-lite 310's were even better performance wise, if that is the case it sounds like a real winner of a bike to in a GG chassis if they can get it in the 230lb range.
I know a lot of areas the 4t sucks but out west they are great to ride. Maintenance wise they suck everywhere haha.
rubber Jonny
New member
IF the new gas gas people bring out a unreliable 4 stroke they are doomed, in Europe 4 stroke enduro is not very popular, KTM 250 / 300 2t out number all other bikes regardless of brand 25-1 so that's what they need to build.
300 2 stroke with a reliable starter motor with the pipe up high so it doesn't get smashed on every rock, oh yeah that the new beta. too late.............
300 2 stroke with a reliable starter motor with the pipe up high so it doesn't get smashed on every rock, oh yeah that the new beta. too late.............
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Reflected in their sales too! Have to pre-order and deposit to get one over here in .au and even then you could be waiting a while. Mate has been bikeless since before Sept waiting on his.
Gas Gas have a solid product, but it needs some serious refinement to come up to the level of the competition. The suspension, linkage, reliability, and price are what have appealed to me. I could write a long list of nuisances, but could do so with most brands too.
If the new successful bidder can take the existing platform, drop a few kgs while keeping the above pro's they'll be headed in the right direction.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Agreed! These refinements can be accomplished quite easily if our friends in Spain would simply listen to the people that ride their motorcycles then act on the obvious changes needed, #1 being a weight reduction.
One of the many changes we were told last November, was a different swing arm being used on future models, saving several pounds. There was also mention of a "improved frame" with a design aimed at adding strength but with less weight than the current model, along with several other refinements on the new models. Unfortunately the body work and hardware remained unchanged on the tech data we saw.
IMO, the current model has WAY too much plastic (side panels for the sub frame rails, and that stupid rear fender assembly) plus all the hardware that is required. This not only adds fat to the bike, it also adds to the manufacturing cost of the bike obviously. Don't get me wrong, the bike is beautiful to look at, but so was the 2010 and 2011 and it didn't have all that unnecessary body work that served no real purpose.
Here is to hoping the new owners of the brand will give us the new product needed...and soon.
phoenix
New member
I had an early VIN 2010 TXC 250 x-lite and it was, indeed, a disaster. If you searched for "x-lite problem" on Cafe Husky, make a list and check it off because I dealt with it - everything from the exhaust cam recall, to stripped cam bridge bolt holes, to the sprag clutch locking itself to the flywheel and much more. But hey, I know a lot more about working on a motorcycle than I did before I bought it! lol. Even so, though, I would give the engine another chance if I felt pretty confident that the big issues had been addressed. I remember talk of an X-lite 450 too, so that would be interesting. I LOVE my Gas Gas 200 and it will probably never leave the garage, but it isn't the best dual sport bike. To me, 4 strokes are just easier to that end and I hope revived Gas Gas has a 4 stroke model.
phoenix
New member
We need to start a separate thread for suggestions for Rod to take to "new Spanish management!" haha. I have a couple of things to add, although I think they made huge improvements starting in 2014 and are on the right track!
Mark Berg - CPD
Site Sponsor
Engineering status
All of the suggestions listed are very good suggestions but i can assure you the factory has already heard them from our perspective, and many other importers perspectives. The problem was higher management that came in during the 2010-11 era let go most of the qualified engineer's and loyal passionate (aka higher paid) engineers in order to lower operating costs. They took an airbox design idea from the main engineer who was the major developer of the entire EC line up, pushed him out the door then completely BUGGERED up his design for a not so good and very late 2012 machine!
At this point spiraling downward, GG didn't have the resources (money and qualified engineers) to greatly change the model and since then you have only seen refinements! Good refinements but still way too much make up (bolts, fasteners, etc) covering and holding together a solid powerplant.
In late 2013 they wanted to introduce to me the new 2 stroke engineer when i was there. I was excited at the chance to discuss all the changes needed with someone new. When we met, he couldn't have been more than 22 to 25 years old and an "ex motocrosser". When i asked what his first major focus was going to be (in hopes he would say rear subframe/airbox), he said he wanted to concentrate on the motor to make it harder hitting...obviously not the trials trait motor direction that most of us love and appreciate! I was very dissappointed to say the least, but again upper management was more to blame. GasGas had lost its direction.
I fly out on Sunday to Milan Italy for meetings with many different groups during the EICMA show on Tuesday through Thursday. I will ask all the questions i can, will torture them with beer, gin and vodka until i get some answers and insight as to the new direction and do my best to put the USA customers 2 cents in. I will try to take some pics too, not just of the pretty models on scooters!
Will keep you posted.
All of the suggestions listed are very good suggestions but i can assure you the factory has already heard them from our perspective, and many other importers perspectives. The problem was higher management that came in during the 2010-11 era let go most of the qualified engineer's and loyal passionate (aka higher paid) engineers in order to lower operating costs. They took an airbox design idea from the main engineer who was the major developer of the entire EC line up, pushed him out the door then completely BUGGERED up his design for a not so good and very late 2012 machine!
At this point spiraling downward, GG didn't have the resources (money and qualified engineers) to greatly change the model and since then you have only seen refinements! Good refinements but still way too much make up (bolts, fasteners, etc) covering and holding together a solid powerplant.
In late 2013 they wanted to introduce to me the new 2 stroke engineer when i was there. I was excited at the chance to discuss all the changes needed with someone new. When we met, he couldn't have been more than 22 to 25 years old and an "ex motocrosser". When i asked what his first major focus was going to be (in hopes he would say rear subframe/airbox), he said he wanted to concentrate on the motor to make it harder hitting...obviously not the trials trait motor direction that most of us love and appreciate! I was very dissappointed to say the least, but again upper management was more to blame. GasGas had lost its direction.
I fly out on Sunday to Milan Italy for meetings with many different groups during the EICMA show on Tuesday through Thursday. I will ask all the questions i can, will torture them with beer, gin and vodka until i get some answers and insight as to the new direction and do my best to put the USA customers 2 cents in. I will try to take some pics too, not just of the pretty models on scooters!
Will keep you posted.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
I can appreciate that, and please...I'm not trying to be the poison pill, but first they (GG) must show a genuine interest in hearing what we have to say, then implement a few of our suggestions. Until GG finally figures out the US is the Golden Goose for off-road sales and "Americanize" the bike (just a wee bit)...we will continue to struggle with what THEY consider, a competitive machine. If I could make a GG Wish? I would like to have at least 2 of their guys come over and spend 6 months here (not sales guys, but R&D) Going to races, trail rides and visiting and meeting real dealers with me. Perhaps some day soon, the new owners will see to it that happens.
poelinca
New member
What surprised me the most when i entered the GG family, and keeps surprising is how much dedicated you guys are.All of the suggestions listed are very good suggestions but i can assure you the factory has already heard them from our perspective, and many other importers perspectives. The problem was higher management that came in during the 2010-11 era let go most of the qualified engineer's and loyal passionate (aka higher paid) engineers in order to lower operating costs. They took an airbox design idea from the main engineer who was the major developer of the entire EC line up, pushed him out the door then completely BUGGERED up his design for a not so good and very late 2012 machine!
At this point spiraling downward, GG didn't have the resources (money and qualified engineers) to greatly change the model and since then you have only seen refinements! Good refinements but still way too much make up (bolts, fasteners, etc) covering and holding together a solid powerplant.
In late 2013 they wanted to introduce to me the new 2 stroke engineer when i was there. I was excited at the chance to discuss all the changes needed with someone new. When we met, he couldn't have been more than 22 to 25 years old and an "ex motocrosser". When i asked what his first major focus was going to be (in hopes he would say rear subframe/airbox), he said he wanted to concentrate on the motor to make it harder hitting...obviously not the trials trait motor direction that most of us love and appreciate! I was very dissappointed to say the least, but again upper management was more to blame. GasGas had lost its direction.
I fly out on Sunday to Milan Italy for meetings with many different groups during the EICMA show on Tuesday through Thursday. I will ask all the questions i can, will torture them with beer, gin and vodka until i get some answers and insight as to the new direction and do my best to put the USA customers 2 cents in. I will try to take some pics too, not just of the pretty models on scooters!
Will keep you posted.
I said this once and i'll say it again, GasGas as a brand is really lucky to have people like you, Rod, David Martinez, etc. behind it.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Trust me when I say I'm only a passenger on this bus. Waaaaay back in the bus.
All of the suggestions listed are very good suggestions but i can assure you the factory has already heard them from our perspective, and many other importers perspectives. The problem was higher management that came in during the 2010-11 era let go most of the qualified engineer's and loyal passionate (aka higher paid) engineers in order to lower operating costs. They took an airbox design idea from the main engineer who was the major developer of the entire EC line up, pushed him out the door then completely BUGGERED up his design for a not so good and very late 2012 machine!
At this point spiraling downward, GG didn't have the resources (money and qualified engineers) to greatly change the model and since then you have only seen refinements! Good refinements but still way too much make up (bolts, fasteners, etc) covering and holding together a solid powerplant.
In late 2013 they wanted to introduce to me the new 2 stroke engineer when i was there. I was excited at the chance to discuss all the changes needed with someone new. When we met, he couldn't have been more than 22 to 25 years old and an "ex motocrosser". When i asked what his first major focus was going to be (in hopes he would say rear subframe/airbox), he said he wanted to concentrate on the motor to make it harder hitting...obviously not the trials trait motor direction that most of us love and appreciate! I was very dissappointed to say the least, but again upper management was more to blame. GasGas had lost its direction.
I fly out on Sunday to Milan Italy for meetings with many different groups during the EICMA show on Tuesday through Thursday. I will ask all the questions i can, will torture them with beer, gin and vodka until i get some answers and insight as to the new direction and do my best to put the USA customers 2 cents in. I will try to take some pics too, not just of the pretty models on scooters!
Will keep you posted.
IMO, the 2012 is a huge step ahead from the '11 and older bikes. I bought one based on the very first press photos and waited about 7 months for it. It's simply an easy bike to ride quickly and gives incredible confidence in its ability to go where you want and hold that line. It also is very easy to ride in muddy conditions- but just a bit hard to get stopped when you have some momentum...
In 220 hours, it has needed very little in maintenance other than an oil change every 20 hrs & the odd check over & the occasional bad wiring connection that needs cleaning.
That being said, it should have come with a bit more robust valving in the shock as well as a higher spring rate. The starter has some issues, but they can be fixed. Of course the bike is certainly a bit on the porky side- though that sometimes has its benefits.....
I like the evolution that happened from '12-'15 & what was done to the '15 and would be happy to buy one of those in the crate if I had the spare funds and there was one to be had.
I've been following this thread some.
Here is what I see being missed.
The riders have done it to themselves.
We went from a culture of hard core to a culture of fancy boy.
I'm sorry, that's gonna piss some of you off but the sales and marketing people are going to build the product for who they think wants it.
Me-I'd rather have super tough unbendable wheels with tough hubs and beefy spokes, etc.etc.
Most of you would rather have black wheels and fancy colored alloys and cool graphics and bitchin models like "six days" which I say "six days my ass"anyways, etc.etc.
That stuff all costs money.Theres a price point.
This isn't a hard thing to figure out.
Here is what I see being missed.
The riders have done it to themselves.
We went from a culture of hard core to a culture of fancy boy.
I'm sorry, that's gonna piss some of you off but the sales and marketing people are going to build the product for who they think wants it.
Me-I'd rather have super tough unbendable wheels with tough hubs and beefy spokes, etc.etc.
Most of you would rather have black wheels and fancy colored alloys and cool graphics and bitchin models like "six days" which I say "six days my ass"anyways, etc.etc.
That stuff all costs money.Theres a price point.
This isn't a hard thing to figure out.
Jacob 'Berg
Member
It looks like KTM will not be competing in the E3 class in the EWC for 2016. This would be a great opportunity for Gas Gas to make a run at E3 if they can get production up and running again, produce a competitive 300 2t (already there in my opinion), and give good support to the racing team.
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