Long/Stroker rod for 01 XC?

J

jgas

New member
My 01 needs a rebuild, am wondering if there is a long rod kit for my bike? It uses a Honda rod from what I hear? I generally like the overall power but would like a little more smooth bottom end torque. I already use a 12oz flywheel weight. I like the mid-top pull stock but would trade off a bit of top end for the additional bottom. I have been a 4t rider for 20 years and ride in some extreme technical terrain with elevation changes and rocks/roots/downed trees, and it's often wet. I need more of a survival bike than anything. I want to keep the 01 model I have since I got lucky and found it with very low hrs in excellent shape. The bike looked perhaps 1 yr old when I bought it in 2011, so I really can't justify a new bike.

I have owned an 01 300 GG and found that the power down low was a bit unmanageable in the tricky stuff, especially when wet. I could manage it but got tired much faster than on my 250. For comparison sake, what I am trying to get is low end power similar to a KTM 200 which to me has the best off idle/extreme low end delivery of any 2 stroke, including their 250 and 300. The KTM 200 low end is snappy but also extremely manageable when I'm tired, riding on nasty wet technical terrain, or whatever else I might encounter. I have also ridden a YZ 250 with a long rod kit, which had the low end that I want, and felt roughly the same to me as a stock YZ on mid and top. I also know that due to different porting/cylinders/pipes/CDIs etc, every bike responds differently to the same mods. I do intend to get the squish set and have someone who knows GGs do the work.

I am almost 50 yrs old, I weigh about 220, and my bike is loaded down with a tube and carrier on the front fender, tool pack on the rear, another tool pack on my waist, and all the usual bike guards. I also use heavy duty tires and the thickest tubes possible. Did I mention that I ride in rocks? I mean extreme often sharp rocks. I think with me and my extra stuff and bike the weight is probably about 470-500lbs and that is without whatever mud gets stuck on the bike. Someone is going to tell me to lose weight. I am not fat, (ok, not fat for an old guy). I lifted weights for 30 years. I also have to carry all the stuff mentioned due to the remote places I ride. When I race I do long course enduros, but some of my trail rides are harder and longer, and I usually ride with younger and faster guys so I need all the help I can get.

I know I could just put up with the stock power delivery but I am willing to fine tune and spend a little more money to get it right, if I get the advice here that it is possible and worth it. I have never really taken the time to set up a bike perfectly before, I just rode them stock most of the time unless I bought one with mods. I am hoping that with a proper setup I can help myself bypass some of the problems I am having. I've had 29 surgeries, and I'm starting to feel my age! I can go pretty fast for about 30-40 miles, then I really start slowing down. I work out and do alot of cardio, but I also have a slight heart condition, have lost about 15% of my lung capacity, etc/etc/etc/. Yes, I'm whining a bit, but I'm trying to use brain over brawn for a change. Not something I'm used to doing, so go ahead and make fun of me, but give me some good advice.
 
first off, 29 surgeries?!! Not sure I want to hear that story.

But to start with lets talk Jetting, because that may be your issue. Also on an old bike it is worth looking at the needle jet in the carb & checking for ovality with a torch & a good eye. Totally round is the only acceptable shape.

Long rod doesn't change the timing duration much but does alter the primary compression. I don't think these are the Droids you are looking for.
 
jgas,

Many of us are older, banged up, or both. We also ride on some pretty crappy trails, I know I do. Hell, my trails will make you feel older than you are! Either bike can work, but if its got to be smooth why not start with a 300? I think it would be easier to tone down the low end bark and and keep a smooth stretch of power than boosting the 250 a lot, as well as more straightfoward and cheaper. I would start with a 300, raise the cylinder and have the head cut to match. Don't go crazy on compression, maybe even drop a few PSI, this will make kicking easy. Get one of the Euro pipes that are mid/top focused. If thats not enough you can retard the static timing. That sounds like a plan doesn't it?
 
GMP said:
jgas,

Many of us are older, banged up, or both. We also ride on some pretty crappy trails, I know I do. Hell, my trails will make you feel older than you are! Either bike can work, but if its got to be smooth why not start with a 300? I think it would be easier to tone down the low end bark and and keep a smooth stretch of power than boosting the 250 a lot, as well as more straightfoward and cheaper. I would start with a 300, raise the cylinder and have the head cut to match. Don't go crazy on compression, maybe even drop a few PSI, this will make kicking easy. Get one of the Euro pipes that are mid/top focused. If thats not enough you can retard the static timing. That sounds like a plan doesn't it?
Click to expand...
+1 on the 300. I loved mine(gave it to the son-in-law). Here in the Puget Sound region of the PNW...Woods, tight & twisty, rocks, roots, logs, mud, and all kinds of crap to ride on... depending on which ride area. My 300 is far more forgiving when I'm tired than either of my 250s. I like to shift gears & fiddle with the clutch etc. Which is why I returned to a 250. My 300 has gobs on bottom. If it started getting away from me...I either let off, or rode a gear higher, or let it throw me on the ground
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm a 250 guy, but a little hit is fine with me. I just thought jgas should approach his problem from the other direction.
 
A slight gearing change could shift your 250's power the direction your looking for, as well. Gearing is a time honored tradition for underpowered vehicles, or changing where the power is delivered. One or two teeth on the rear would make a difference on how much power you put to the tire in the bottom.
 
Cool. I get more, faster, and better replies here than anywhere.

I have already geared my bike down so low that first is almost never used. I use 2nd where most would use first, and also use 3rd alot with some clutch work. I really had to lower 1st for some of the crawling/trials type work I do. I ride one trail that is 2 miles long, almost everyone is in 1st for 90% of it. With mistakes it will take the average B enduro rider 45 min. plus. It's kinda like 5 miles of hell in Colorado, but harder for the 2 miles with fewer breaks.

In other words, at 50 I need to rider different trails, but I made the trail so I have to do it occasionally to save face. :confused:

I failed to mention that I have a very hard time kickstarting most bikes, even most 250s. I had a 300 which had had the squish set, was jetted well and ran crisp, but it was hard to kick with my weak leg and hurt foot, and it tired me out very quickly in the technical stuff. It was just too snappy everywhere. When I rode it a gear high, I stalled it, although it did have an 8 oz flywheel weight. If I had known about the setup stuff you guys are mentioning I probably would/should have kept it and worked with it.

I am not opposed to trying another 300, but if it's much harder to kick than a 250, thats out. You'd just have to see my right foot. Almost lost it due to an injury and gangrene. It looks like I was tortured and refused to give up the secrets. I also have extensive nerve damage in my right leg and foot from a back injury with partial parylisis of the back of my right leg. And thats only 11 of my surgeries, although most of the others resulted in better function. I bought my 250 on a whim as a spare bike because I could actually kickstart if ok. GG seems to have the internal kick gear ratios, kickstarter length, all worked out so they are just easier to kick than any other 2 strokes. Most guys have no problems with any 250-300, and I can start Yamahas, KTMs, older Hondas, etc. but it sure hurts my foot and leg. Anyway, enough whining:

I intend to discuss what has been mentioned with Jim Cook, our local guru, and maybe whoever I have to build the motor.

What's a 300 head cost, or can I have the 250 head bored? Do I need case work to convert my 250 to a 300? How about an intermediate size like 265-275cc? Pros/cons? If I go with a low compression 300, ported for low end, and an adjustable P V cover set up for low end, would it be noticeably harder to kick than my 250, how much easier than a stock 300? Please remember that for you guys with a normal foot/leg, kicking my 250 is ok, but about at my ability limit. What you don't even notice hurts me like I can't put into words. Sometimes I can simply bump my foot on a rock and the pain is pretty bad.

I used to ride KX 500s and XR 600s with high compression motors, and a KTM 380 SX in the woods. I tried to kick a KTM 380 EXC the other day with a new top end. I started it, but soon stalled it. I pushed it back to the truck rather than kick it again. I'm wimpy and I admit it, but I ain't quittin. I have recently owned some e start bikes, still have one, but after riding this old GG, I realized I was having fun and was faster than on any of my other bikes owned in the last 5 years. Besides, it's kinda cool owning a "fringe" bike. Makes me feel like a Ferrari owner or something. Hey, we need to make up some Ferrari stickers for our bikes! No, thats Italian. Any fast sports cars made in Spain?
 
I think you could play with diferent needles and get some of what you want.
 
I remembered your kickstart issues, thats why I suggested looking into a lower compression 300 with a raised deck height. To add low end to a 250 means more compression, and the 250s don't have the compression bleed hole like the 300s. I'd talk to Ron at RBD about this. A Yamaha YZ kickstart lever is longer and should help too.

300 conversion is very easy. All you need is a 300 cyl, head, piston kit, and gaskets. Bolts right on with no machining, even the powervalve parts swap over between cylinders. You can swap back to a 250 easy at any time.

I assume you have no $$ for a new estart, as you wouldn't be bothering with this.

jgas,

Are you the guy that was known as "two toes gone" by the WUDI ride crew a few years back? Smashed your foot bad at Brock Creek I think? Hope I didn't offend you but you sound familiar.
 
Hey Jeff, I still have this 274 cylinder that has ALL LOW END & mid power. It was sold to me as an 'Eric Gorr ported for low end + squish set'. No top end rev out, it was way more like a trials bike power and just didn't work for hare scrambling. Cylinder, head, piston, rings, power valve & wrist pin. I haven't checked ring gap but it was a first kick starter when I took it off. I ran it for a while but went back to stock w/RB head mod for what I do. I'd take $200 + shipping. If you want it let me know
 
Hey Fred! You are one of the shops I was considering to rebuild my bike. Yes, I want your top end, provided one thing: Does it stall more easily than a stock setup? My 285 YZ did, but YZs stall easier than GG anyway, so it may not matter. My YZ already had an 8oz flywheel weight, I went to a 14 oz, which they make for YZs, but not GGs, which they only make up to 12. That helped greatly with the stalling, and smoothed it out a bit, but it was still hard to start, easy to stall, and just had too much power everywhere for me. That YZ was built by Randy Hawkins so it may have been ported, no telling what mods were actually done so my guess is that your 274 head being on a GG which is less stall prone than a Yamaha won't be much different than stock regarding stalling. It might even be less stall prone? Sounds like a great deal. I'm kinda weird in my power delivery preference. I almost never rev out any fast motor anyway. I prefer to short shift and try for smoothness over speed.

Some of my many surgeries were 4 major eye surgeries and several more lazer procedures so my eyesight isn't perfect. I can't see well close up, and not great real far away, especially in changing light, such as we get all the time going from woods to open terrain, and with varying cloud cover, so I think some of my dislike for a hard pulling top end is my bike sometimes outruns my eyes? And then if light conditions are perfect, and I can see ok, my back and knees hurt like heck if I hit something big while sitting down, and I can't stand up for long, so I try for good corner speed, smoothness, few mistakes, etc. I kinda try to go fast by doing everything right except really going fast, if that makes sense. Ok, I said I was gonna quit whining and I didn't.

But Fred, I do want your top end. I am hoping that a 274 won't be hard to kick, and it's worth trying even if I end up going to a 300 later with low compression and a raised head. I may eventually buy another older GG for a spare bike, probably a 300. I am riding and working all weekend at BC, I'll contact you next week and send you a check if thats ok, and we'll talk cost for you to do the whole job. Jim Cook recommended you by the way. He said he would help out with any additional parts or advice needed for the build, but he's not doing much bike work himself lately.

GMP, I am one of the broken foot guys that was at that BC WUDI ride. I only lost one toe and bone on the outside of my foot, but it was not at BC, happened at another closed down riding place. There are actually 2 other guys I know who lost toes, one guy from Kansas City lost his big toe and part of the one next to it, (a lost big toe is a much bigger issue than mine), and the other guy lost 2 toes on the outside of his shift foot. I think both guys were at that WUDI as was I. Much of the damage to my foot was not from the initial injury which was not all that bad, but from Gangrene and Osteomylitis, and I already had a serious back injury which screwed up the same foot and leg. It's only been recently that I got it strong enough to kickstart anything harder than a 200 2 stroke, and now I am having some abnormal bone growth which will require another surgery soon, but that should fix me up for awhile I hope. They think one or more pins have backed out of my ankle bone, which they can now remove, and they have to shave some bone spurs off of the 4th toe which now takes the my weight and it's getting abnormal due to the other changes.

Long story short, I can now kick a 250 or even a 300, but there is a big difference to me. I like the short lever and kick lever placement/ergos on a GG. For some reason it hurts far less than Yamahas or KTMs. I recently sold that really nice YZ 285 because it just hurt too much to start it was the main reason although as I said I had other issues with it. Most bikes you have to start with the starter almost straight up and down, then have a long way to move it through the stroke. On my GG it starts at less than 90 degrees to the bike, then is a short quick kick, and my foot just hits the flat footpeg, (I have really wide pegs too), and my foot is stopped by the peg rather than bottoming out when the starter does, which would put all the force on a narrow section on my foot from the small diameter lever. Not something that most people even notice. After riding for about an hour, my foot, calf, and lower hamstring gets really weak from the back injury. After a really long hard ride I can barely walk for awhile, I sometimes have to use a cane and leave my riding boots on for support, or wear high top hiking shoes so my ankle doesn't just fall over. I twist my ankle at least 10 times a week in normal living. It's gotten so flexible it sometimes doesn't even hurt when I twist it! I guess my body has adapted to the overflexion over the years?

Ok, NOW I'm really gonna quit whining.

GMP, you are correct about buying a new bike. I occasionally bought new bikes when I raced whole seasons, but I just can't justify the cost since I don't race and I just beat them up at BC and Trainrobbers. Also, I kinda fell in love with my 01 XC. For some reason that bike makes me smoother and faster. I rarely make mistakes on it and I don't get as tired. I like 250 4ts also, have a CRF 250 X, but it won't stay together. (Top ends). I think if I get the GG rebuilt right it might last a couple of years. I am also loving the overall quality of the GG. I've ridden it a year and the wheel bearings and linkage bearings are not worn out, the spokes aren't loose, everything feels almost as tight as when I bought it. Even feels tighter than a KTM with the same hrs, and I like the handling/turning far better than a KTM. I also like the linkage and Ohlins shock. It seems to almost never "kick" up or sideways, and always feels planted and stable, far better than any KTMs I've tried. I think the extra 10 lbs over a KTM actually helps with the stability, but once riding I don't feel the weight at all, in fact I get less tired because it tracks straighter in rocks and feels more stable, and I'm not constantly chasing it.

I also have a theory that certain bikes work better for sit down riders than for stand up riders. Not that a good rider can't ride anything fast, but for me, bikes that turn to quick really suck. I think it's mainly from steering head being at a steep angle? I can put up with a slow turning bike like a Husaberg or older KTM, but a quick turner like a KTM 200 slows me down from making me make mistakes. A more talented rider might like that quickness, and stand up riders seem to prefer quick steering.

My GG seems to be right in the middle. I can attack turns any way I like. I can brake slide, lean over and power through, do a quick brake slide and powerslide through, or brake early with the bike straight up and down and then powerslide all the way through. On almost any turn, I have options and the bike is versatile enough to do it all. Very few bikes seem to have that perfect balance that allows this versatility. It is predictable in ruts, flat turns, off cambers, everywhere. For a 2 stroke, my GG feels just a little heavier in the front similar to a small bore 4t. My CRF 250 X is a bit heavier feeling, but fairly close to the GG. The turning effort is slightly harder than most other 2 strokes, but I like that. It makes the front tire feel planted and predictable.

Yes, I am picky and think too much. I used to just want a bike with a fast motor and I'd muscle it around no matter what it wanted to, I could bend it to my will. Now I guess old age and injuries is forcing me to think about things that used to not matter?

Ok, I've typed enough! Gotta go load up so I can go to BC tomorrow and poke around on my old DRZ and do some work.

Fred, consider your 274 parts sold. Talk to you next week.

Jeff.
 
For ease of starting a low compression head might be the go. Setting the squish at 1mm is nice for clean burning, but raises the comm up too high so you need to take some area out of the head. You could get someone to measure it & take it down to say 11:1 (full stroke) which should make it easy to kick.
 
How does lower compression affect power delivery? I assume it's simply less power throughout the rev range? I do know that lower comp makes any bike easier to kick. You can feel it get easier as a motor ages.
 
jgas,

I'd be willing to bet that of all your surgeries, your fingers aren't included because you type like hell in every post!:D Smokin' that keyboard!

I remember guys talking about a guy who lost his toes "two toes gone" who went back with a sledgehammer for revenge on the rock that got him!

Lower compression will let the motor rev more and soften low end. Thats the point though, the 300 has more than enough stock and your trading it off for a softer delivery and easier kick. Squish is independent of compression, it should be 1mm for a 250-300 regardless. Compression is the last thing adjusted by dome volume.
 
The answer to your stalling issue is an AUTO-CLUTCH.
Crap out in any technical situation or tip it over. Doesn't matter cuz the bike stays running. Happily idles while you get your act together.
 
I don't think you have to go this custom for a solution. That was on a 500 which is a real beast, plus a 300 already has a compression bleed hole. Determine what is the most compression you can stand to kick, and have Ron at RBD work with that. It would be a relatively cheap and simple solution.
 
jgas said:
Hey Fred! You are one of the shops I was considering to rebuild my bike. Yes, I want your top end, provided one thing: Does it stall more easily than a stock setup? My 285 YZ did, but YZs stall easier than GG anyway, so it may not matter. My YZ already had an 8oz flywheel weight, I went to a 14 oz, which they make for YZs, but not GGs, which they only make up to 12. That helped greatly with the stalling, and smoothed it out a bit, but it was still hard to start, easy to stall, and just had too much power everywhere for me. That YZ was built by Randy Hawkins so it may have been ported, no telling what mods were actually done so my guess is that your 274 head being on a GG which is less stall prone than a Yamaha won't be much different than stock regarding stalling. It might even be less stall prone? Sounds like a great deal. I'm kinda weird in my power delivery preference. I almost never rev out any fast motor anyway. I prefer to short shift and try for smoothness over speed.

Some of my many surgeries were 4 major eye surgeries and several more lazer procedures so my eyesight isn't perfect. I can't see well close up, and not great real far away, especially in changing light, such as we get all the time going from woods to open terrain, and with varying cloud cover, so I think some of my dislike for a hard pulling top end is my bike sometimes outruns my eyes? And then if light conditions are perfect, and I can see ok, my back and knees hurt like heck if I hit something big while sitting down, and I can't stand up for long, so I try for good corner speed, smoothness, few mistakes, etc. I kinda try to go fast by doing everything right except really going fast, if that makes sense. Ok, I said I was gonna quit whining and I didn't.

But Fred, I do want your top end. I am hoping that a 274 won't be hard to kick, and it's worth trying even if I end up going to a 300 later with low compression and a raised head. I may eventually buy another older GG for a spare bike, probably a 300. I am riding and working all weekend at BC, I'll contact you next week and send you a check if thats ok, and we'll talk cost for you to do the whole job. Jim Cook recommended you by the way. He said he would help out with any additional parts or advice needed for the build, but he's not doing much bike work himself lately.

GMP, I am one of the broken foot guys that was at that BC WUDI ride. I only lost one toe and bone on the outside of my foot, but it was not at BC, happened at another closed down riding place. There are actually 2 other guys I know who lost toes, one guy from Kansas City lost his big toe and part of the one next to it, (a lost big toe is a much bigger issue than mine), and the other guy lost 2 toes on the outside of his shift foot. I think both guys were at that WUDI as was I. Much of the damage to my foot was not from the initial injury which was not all that bad, but from Gangrene and Osteomylitis, and I already had a serious back injury which screwed up the same foot and leg. It's only been recently that I got it strong enough to kickstart anything harder than a 200 2 stroke, and now I am having some abnormal bone growth which will require another surgery soon, but that should fix me up for awhile I hope. They think one or more pins have backed out of my ankle bone, which they can now remove, and they have to shave some bone spurs off of the 4th toe which now takes the my weight and it's getting abnormal due to the other changes.

Long story short, I can now kick a 250 or even a 300, but there is a big difference to me. I like the short lever and kick lever placement/ergos on a GG. For some reason it hurts far less than Yamahas or KTMs. I recently sold that really nice YZ 285 because it just hurt too much to start it was the main reason although as I said I had other issues with it. Most bikes you have to start with the starter almost straight up and down, then have a long way to move it through the stroke. On my GG it starts at less than 90 degrees to the bike, then is a short quick kick, and my foot just hits the flat footpeg, (I have really wide pegs too), and my foot is stopped by the peg rather than bottoming out when the starter does, which would put all the force on a narrow section on my foot from the small diameter lever. Not something that most people even notice. After riding for about an hour, my foot, calf, and lower hamstring gets really weak from the back injury. After a really long hard ride I can barely walk for awhile, I sometimes have to use a cane and leave my riding boots on for support, or wear high top hiking shoes so my ankle doesn't just fall over. I twist my ankle at least 10 times a week in normal living. It's gotten so flexible it sometimes doesn't even hurt when I twist it! I guess my body has adapted to the overflexion over the years?

Ok, NOW I'm really gonna quit whining.

GMP, you are correct about buying a new bike. I occasionally bought new bikes when I raced whole seasons, but I just can't justify the cost since I don't race and I just beat them up at BC and Trainrobbers. Also, I kinda fell in love with my 01 XC. For some reason that bike makes me smoother and faster. I rarely make mistakes on it and I don't get as tired. I like 250 4ts also, have a CRF 250 X, but it won't stay together. (Top ends). I think if I get the GG rebuilt right it might last a couple of years. I am also loving the overall quality of the GG. I've ridden it a year and the wheel bearings and linkage bearings are not worn out, the spokes aren't loose, everything feels almost as tight as when I bought it. Even feels tighter than a KTM with the same hrs, and I like the handling/turning far better than a KTM. I also like the linkage and Ohlins shock. It seems to almost never "kick" up or sideways, and always feels planted and stable, far better than any KTMs I've tried. I think the extra 10 lbs over a KTM actually helps with the stability, but once riding I don't feel the weight at all, in fact I get less tired because it tracks straighter in rocks and feels more stable, and I'm not constantly chasing it.

I also have a theory that certain bikes work better for sit down riders than for stand up riders. Not that a good rider can't ride anything fast, but for me, bikes that turn to quick really suck. I think it's mainly from steering head being at a steep angle? I can put up with a slow turning bike like a Husaberg or older KTM, but a quick turner like a KTM 200 slows me down from making me make mistakes. A more talented rider might like that quickness, and stand up riders seem to prefer quick steering.

My GG seems to be right in the middle. I can attack turns any way I like. I can brake slide, lean over and power through, do a quick brake slide and powerslide through, or brake early with the bike straight up and down and then powerslide all the way through. On almost any turn, I have options and the bike is versatile enough to do it all. Very few bikes seem to have that perfect balance that allows this versatility. It is predictable in ruts, flat turns, off cambers, everywhere. For a 2 stroke, my GG feels just a little heavier in the front similar to a small bore 4t. My CRF 250 X is a bit heavier feeling, but fairly close to the GG. The turning effort is slightly harder than most other 2 strokes, but I like that. It makes the front tire feel planted and predictable.

Yes, I am picky and think too much. I used to just want a bike with a fast motor and I'd muscle it around no matter what it wanted to, I could bend it to my will. Now I guess old age and injuries is forcing me to think about things that used to not matter?

Ok, I've typed enough! Gotta go load up so I can go to BC tomorrow and poke around on my old DRZ and do some work.

Fred, consider your 274 parts sold. Talk to you next week.

Jeff.
Click to expand...

Jeff, I don't remember any stalling issues but I think that bike did have a FWW, maybe 10oz?? on a 2K-2 but I put a 2K-3 on it after that. One of Jim Cook friends (Bob Diffee)has the bike now and I believe they may have removed that weight or maybe I sold it with the 2K-2 & traded the weight for something on the '04 I had. Dang getting old I guess. Just give me a call
 
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