NEW! GasGas EC250 4-stroke w/Yamaha Engine!

I think Gas Gas are doing the wrong thing with this.

1st: I think you will find that Gas Gas are going to use a 2006 WR 250 motor, a good motor but out dated.I have checked with Gas Gas and this is correct.

2nd: Gas Gas are not renowned for parts books on limited model run and although it is a Yamaha motor, some parts will differ and if anyone has had anything to do with Gas Gas parts listing, correct part numbers for this bike will be a problem.Has anyone tryed to get parts for a TM motor Gas Gas or a Gas Gas MC65 with the Derbi motor?
Gas Gas will need to have everything in place before they do the same mistakes as they made on the other low volume models.

3rd: Gas Gas have been developing a 250 4T for the last eight years and keep putting it off due to all sorts of reasons and I think that it would be another three years before we see a Gas Gas built 250 motor that is reliable.

4th: The price is another factor, I can not see how they can retail this bike at less than the Husky or KTM and for the extra it would cost over a Yamaha you would be able to put a lot of bling on a new 2009 WR250.

5th: Yamaha will offer a greater warranty piriod than Gas Gas for the same motor so that could be another factor in swaying people not to go for the Gas Gas over the Yamaha.

I think if Gas Gas was going to do something like this they need to build something Yamaha do not offer, they should put there own 300cc top end on the Yamaha motor and use there own Gas Gas built 250 motor on the track to get it sorted untill they can release it.
Lets face it most Gas Gas are sold to non racers and a 300cc 4T would sell as many as a rebadged 250 that has a three year old Yamaha motor in it.

By putting a 300cc top end on the Yamaha motor they could than at least play with the jetting to get it to work better than the Yamaha 250.
Being a 300cc and the Yamaha reliability could sway Yamaha owners over and also give Gas Gas owners a great dirt bike.

The down side to all this is the time frame to develop a 300 top end and if the bottom end of the 250 Yamaha would handle it.
and if Yamaha would supply motors without the 250 top end.
Also I think you would find Yamaha will be offering Gas Gas some sort of warranty on the compleat motor, but may not if it has a 300 top end.

I think we bye a Gas Gas because it is a bit different and not a rebadged brand.
Gas Gas I think you better think hard about this one and dont jump in like you have done many times before.
Get this wrong and it could cost you sales when you do have your own 250 but get it correct and it could be a big seller.
 
curtis,

Your opinion is fine, but you did back it up with statements about Asin bikes having poorer longevity than their Euro connterparts. While I agree with this in your specific case, its not an accurate general statement to make.

This is of course all hypothetical Q&A, the non-Ducati motor would never exist. IF it did though, it would for a reason, that being an alternative to nothing.

FWIW, I didn't buy the Duc to be a Ducatisti, I could care less about joining a "club". After considering a few bikes it fit the bill. The air cooled 2V seems easy enough to deal with so far and I do not plan to pay the dealer big $$ to maintain the bike. I doubt I'd even consider a Superbike with the 4V Testastretta motor, as that is much more of a PIA to work on. Plus, I'm just not into the sportbike riding position, I like the upright motard and semi-upright naked streetfighters best. I was able to ride the Hyper all last summer with a re-fractured clavicle, and this year with a still healing one. That would never have been possible on a sportbike.

So, until we get some official details and word of a go ahead about this GG/Yamaha it is all hypothetical as well. 500 bikes aren't much in the big picture anyway, and it would be another big guess as to how many would end up here anyway.

I'm about done with this thread now, its getting old.
 
Sandman said:
I think Gas Gas are doing the wrong thing with this.

1st: I think you will find that Gas Gas are going to use a 2006 WR 250 motor, a good motor but out dated.I have checked with Gas Gas and this is correct.

2nd: Gas Gas are not renowned for parts books on limited model run and although it is a Yamaha motor, some parts will differ and if anyone has had anything to do with Gas Gas parts listing, correct part numbers for this bike will be a problem.Has anyone tryed to get parts for a TM motor Gas Gas or a Gas Gas MC65 with the Derbi motor?
Gas Gas will need to have everything in place before they do the same mistakes as they made on the other low volume models.

3rd: Gas Gas have been developing a 250 4T for the last eight years and keep putting it off due to all sorts of reasons and I think that it would be another three years before we see a Gas Gas built 250 motor that is reliable.

4th: The price is another factor, I can not see how they can retail this bike at less than the Husky or KTM and for the extra it would cost over a Yamaha you would be able to put a lot of bling on a new 2009 WR250.

5th: Yamaha will offer a greater warranty piriod than Gas Gas for the same motor so that could be another factor in swaying people not to go for the Gas Gas over the Yamaha.

I think if Gas Gas was going to do something like this they need to build something Yamaha do not offer, they should put there own 300cc top end on the Yamaha motor and use there own Gas Gas built 250 motor on the track to get it sorted untill they can release it.
Lets face it most Gas Gas are sold to non racers and a 300cc 4T would sell as many as a rebadged 250 that has a three year old Yamaha motor in it.

By putting a 300cc top end on the Yamaha motor they could than at least play with the jetting to get it to work better than the Yamaha 250.
Being a 300cc and the Yamaha reliability could sway Yamaha owners over and also give Gas Gas owners a great dirt bike.

The down side to all this is the time frame to develop a 300 top end and if the bottom end of the 250 Yamaha would handle it.
and if Yamaha would supply motors without the 250 top end.
Also I think you would find Yamaha will be offering Gas Gas some sort of warranty on the compleat motor, but may not if it has a 300 top end.

I think we bye a Gas Gas because it is a bit different and not a rebadged brand.
Gas Gas I think you better think hard about this one and dont jump in like you have done many times before.
Get this wrong and it could cost you sales when you do have your own 250 but get it correct and it could be a big seller.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
I myself would welcome the GasGas / Yamaha hybrid as the Yamaha WR250f motors reliability with the exceptional handling characteristics of the GasGas frame would open a lot of doors for GasGas as it would easily become an off-road hit.

Remember Japanese enduro bikes start life as a motorcrosser and their frames normally don't adapt well to aggresive off-road riding conditions without a lot of aftermarket messaging.

Given GasGas needs to eventually develop a 250-350cc four-stroke motor on its own but they need to test the market conditions first to see how receptive than displacment four-stoke would be before they spend a lot of money going down that road.
 
Sounds absolutely dopey to me.

First GG takes the 400cc DRZ motor which was already a great motor and modifies it with a 6speed and EFI to make it even better. Next they make it into a 450 better yet. Then they take that reliable dry sump motor and change it into a wet sump. That I don't understand. Finally, all of this wasn't enough so they further modified it to 500cc. That was good.

After all the upgrades, they now want a 250 4 stroke from Yamaha.I just don't see it for the USA market especially if it's not going to be plate worthy in all 50 states. It wasn't mentioned, but the Yammi motor is plateable, so if their not planning on makeing them plateable, I think it's an even dumber
idea. If they plan to plate them, it might have a market for overseas in those countries that have graduated licenses, maybe. For the USA they might be better off sleeving the 450 motor to 300 cc. That motor would last 50K miles.

Unless this 250 concept weighs in at around 220 lbs, I just can't see it.

Tony
 
People, it's all about choice.
Manufacturers build many models to cater to people's needs.
If you don't like a certain model, you don't buy it.

The 250F will attract a younger crowd and build brand loyalty.
 
I really enjoyed the variation in opinions expressed in this thread.

It really goes to show how difficult the motorcycle industry is, and how design and engineering trade-offs are really affected by a company's read and understanding of the marketplace. I didn't tally the results, but I'd guess that the split was 50/50 for/against.

How'd you like to make the decision whether to go ahead knowing 1/2 support the notion, and 1/2 don't? It's easy when the ratio is 80%/20%, but not so easy at 50/50.

Having read the other posts, my position has changed. Now I am hoping for a Yamaha-engined GG 250-300 4T for my daughter. That seat height of 1.6 inches less than the WR would be great for her shorter legs. There were a number of good ideas, particularly making a GG specific top end at 300cc. I hadn't thought of that.

The other odd thing is that on one post, it was stated that GG only sold 100 enduro bikes in the US bikes last year. Wow. I had no idea the volume was that low. I guess it can only go up from there.

It's a tough business.

blitz
 
Last edited:
Keep up the great work!

We are still getting tons of views and a lot of replies to this post! Amazing!
THE MOST AMAZING part of it though is that GasGas corporate in Spain is actually watching and reading the posts!!! I received an email from Dale (US Importer) that Spain had emailed him and asked me to remove the pictures because they were not accurate, so I removed them yesterday. When is the last time you have heard of KTM watching the forums on KTMtalk.com, etc.? KTM riders have been complaing and whining like crazy for a 6-spd tranny in their 2-strokes for almost a decade now!!! 2010 comes along and here they are 5-spds again! That is one of the reasons I wanted to be a part of the GasGas revolution because they want to know what we riders in the U.S. want. That is why the electric start is coming out on the 300's in the fall because the U.S. wanted it! Anyway keep the posts coming,
we really do appreciate ALL of the posts whether they are positive, negative or neutral because you guys are the riders and the ones that are buying the bikes and we value your opinions!!!

Thanks again. :cool:

Tom
 
Just a quick note.
Which ever way they go it would be wise to listen to people on here, (as they are), as I for one was swayed to the mighty GG300 by reading posts on this site.I originally wanted a Ktm 300 .
My only options were a Ktm 300, GG 300, Tm 300 or Husky 250 2T at the time.
Gas gas seems to be better designed and has the extras like hydraulic clutch, 6 speed and quality components. Therefore after reading what was on this site I chose.The help and backup here is second to none and you feel like part of the GG family.
Final word is to listen to the site and ensure whatever bike is built has quaility and a few extras that others don't.
All the best,
Mark( Oz )
 
Since it is apparent that Gas Gas people are viewing this post, I'll chime in. Screw four strokes! If you can sell a lame 250 cammer to the masses and if it's cheaper to use a reliable, proven jap engine and make money, therefore increasing the profit to Gas Gas, then go for it.

Also, I ride Gas Gas (my third GG) because it is the best two stroke bike in the world, period. Great chassis, never once have I ridden a bike that even comes close to the balance and perfection of handling.

While I'm ranting, screw electric start, unless you can drop 15 pounds from an already fairly porky bike. Electric start is a great thing, but only if it's reliable, the KTM 2-stroke e-start needs to be bathed in oil to keep it from grenading itself.
 
I just have a hard time believing that the 250f market isn't saturated. I can't see that GG 250f is really going to stand out in any way, especially with a Yama motor. I'm sure it would be a great bike, just not a big seller. Would be nice to be proven wrong, though....
 
Not for me sorry, if I wanted a 250f Yamaha motor I would buy a Wr250f & be done with it.

If Gas Gas is looking at expanding its range then, I seriously believe that Gas Gas should look at bringing out a 300f or even better a 350f motor for its enduro cross range. EFI, electric start & keeping the weight down would ensure its success.
I feel this is where there is a opportunity to sell more bikes. A lot of 4t riders outgrow a 250f to quick & search for more power, yet find the gyroscopic effect of a 450f to much in the tight stuff.
 
One thing that seems to have been lost here is that the Yamie powered 250f is a small run / one time only thing. As was pointed out, this will fill a gap in the WEC (as well as many local racing jurisdictions) for a 250f, until GasGas can produce their own motor.
Saturated or not, GasGas selling a 250f will have little to no effect on the market, since only loyal GG owners will buy it anyway.
 
tm_enduro said:
One thing that seems to have been lost here is that the Yamie powered 250f is a small run / one time only thing. As was pointed out, this will fill a gap in the WEC (as well as many local racing jurisdictions) for a 250f, until GasGas can produce their own motor.
Saturated or not, GasGas selling a 250f will have little to no effect on the market, since only loyal GG owners will buy it anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes, a very small production run for sure if the 500 motor # is in fact accuarate. I see the WEC having little or no bearing on this as most bikes will be bought by avarage Joe rider for local racing/riding. Eventually with their own motor I can see more WEC GG participation perhaps.

If the pictures that were pulled were not accurate and GG Spain is indeed watching these posts give us some real pics of the bike with the Yammi motor. (carb access looked brutal from those I thought)

When they do come out (and just how close is this thing really I would like to know) with their own motor it should be:

Built to handle from 250cc to 350cc without major alterations
Small and light weight (like the Sherco, KTM or new Husky motor)
FI would be preferred with kick starter backup
6 speeds (please oh please NOT a 5 speed)
Hydro clutch of course
Stock cooling fan to control heat buildup
Good lighting power
Quiet
US street legal
Easy to work on
?????????? (Please add your own ideas)

Bike should weigh around 230lbs dry at most
 
Skidad, keep in mind that the relentless drive for light weight is tending to cause some problems. Lighter frames, smaller calipers, smaller fuel tanks and on and on are starting to cause reliability or use problems. KTM is a good case in point. Super light weight but some issues are showing up.
 
Distraction!

Bike weight really hasn't changed that much over the years. A list MXA produced a while back showed that MX bikes have always been around 220-240 range.

Anyway, I'm with roostafish on this one.

Screw four strokes (for now). Make money now on the EC's as they are. They are good, don't forget that fact. Lots of people would buy the wonderful 200, the cool 250 or the lovely 300 if they knew about them and even tried one.

I also have one "...because it is the best two stroke bike in the world, period. Great chassis, never once have I ridden a bike that even comes close to the balance and perfection of handling..."

Again: "screw electric start, unless you can drop 15 pounds from an already fairly porky bike.."

By being a 2-stroke supplier, it takes a big chunk of the market by default. GG only needs to be available. All ex-RM/KX/CR/YZ owners who liked those bikes got screwed. Did they actually ask for a 450F? NO.

I got converted because I was lent a scratched up and bent '01 EC300 for a survival-run race. 2 weeks later I laid down hard cash for an almost new '07, no questions asked.

What needs to be done is the boring stuff:

-Support, impove and expand the US dealer network. 5000 bikes per year should be set as a goal for 2011, no BS.

-Improve operations. Have external pros go through and check the whole supply chain from sourcing, manufacturing, built-bike distribution and spare parts.

-Improve documentation. Better and more.

-Support the likes of Justin Wiliamson. Not only with bikes and parts, but with setup and testing. Yes the bike is gnarly in the slimy snot, but now it also has to learn high speeds for the US market. Get the feedback from pros and amateurs and use it as pre-pro testing.
 
The only growing market segments for motorcycles are dual sports and scooters. Everything else is in decline. It is critical that gasgas has competition oriented street legal dual sports in their portfolio.

Street legal 2 strokes are never going to happen. A street legal 300-325 cc bike built off of, and with the weight of, a 250 4 stroke would be a grand slam. I have been saying this for years - husky now has their te310 - they will sell a boatload of them... I don't like how the husky motor shares the same stroke with it's 250 counterpart. It should have a longer stroke to provide greater torque. Can GasGas get a long stroke yamaha 300cc 4 stroke motor with a six speed? A heavy duty lighting coil would add to the appeal. That would be a grand slam.

In Europe- they have tariffs based on displacement and age based licensing based on displacement so staying below 250cc may not just be a racing class issue but a cost issue and a market issue.

It doesn't seem that the market here in the u.s. is understood by gasgas corporate - they could have had epa approval on the 450 years ago - the market window has passed them by and others have filled this market niche - husqvarna, etc.

jeff

p.s. I have 30 years experience in engineering, spent about 10 of it in marketing, also technical sales, etc.
 
It's too bad we're not all just loaded with money. We as a community could really advance the cause by committing to buying 100 of these Gasahas and put 300-350cc stroker kits in them and pass them around to a bunch of magazines and test riders. Maybe Gas Gas would get a really nice boost from the American market, expecially if it were street license capable. While I'm spending all this money I don't have, I'd probably put together an offroad team and pay some darkhorse riders who are right on the cusp to go get noticed. The Knights did this 10 years ago, but unfortunately, racing costs big money, and there's only so far you can go in a sport that has no TV advertising attraction.
Unfortunately, it's just a dream, unless we can get Jay Leno interested, or, perhaps Bill Gates.
 
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