Opinion of Changes to US GG line for 2012
- Thread starter Clay
- Start date
Clay
Banned
Dank,
1. Everyone seems to think we have too many models
2. Seems to be some agreement on the three model idea for the 250s and 300s with a combined 6D/Race model.
3. Better fasteners, more common fasteners
4. Updated suspension valving specs, maybe 48mm Zoke fork on all models. heavier springs for fat asses Americans (Canadians, too)
5. Maybe an e start 200 with lower suspension. Steve Beane committed to ordering 50 units. (Just kidding, Steve!).
6. Bump the 125 to a 150.
7. Bigger fuel tank.
8. More and more Power Parts items for guys who want to add protection items and bling.
That's the main things I got. There are a ton of little things like better footpegs, no death swing sidestand, a connector plug on the wiring harness so you can remove the subframe, etc....
Does that sound right?
Clay
dank
New member
sounds like a heck of a list. i wonder what we'll do about the Estart though. because somebody may want the standard, but not the estart, and somebody with a race model may decide to take the weight of an estart to make starting easier on hills. what if you just had both the standard and the race model without the estart, and when you send out a shipment of bikes to the dealer, send with them a few estart kits. make them easy to put on the bike, and if the buyer wants it, they can buy it and have the dealer put it on the bike. kindof like ordering the bike with it, but without the complications, and the only problem would be the overhead cost of having the estart kits sitting on the shelf.
Clay
Banned
We will have a standard with 48mm Zoke forks, an estart with 48mm Zoke forks and a Race model. If the Race customer wants e start, he'll have to buy the estart kit. The estart 300 is the best selling unit we have so I'm not going to kill it by doing a kit thing. Dealers would hate if they had to install it for free and customers wouldn't want to pay for it. You know....you just can't please everybody with bikes from a factory!
Clay
roostafish
Gold Level Site Supporter
If I could put my own personal priority to that list it would look like this:
1. Better fasteners, more common fasteners.
2. Suspension.
3. Streamlined models.
Everything else is just gravy!
When I see the fasteners on the list, I really really really hope that means that I won't need two wrenches to take the subframe off. Even the linkage. Captive nuts/threads would really simplify working on these bikes. This is one of the main things that make them such a pain to work on. Obviously some of that is due to the compact nature of the frame and how it all fits. Here comes the comparison though. Working on Gas Gas=foul language and bloody knuckles. Working on Husqvarna=laughing and chatting with anyone who happens to be around, or enjoying what is on the radio.
It is great to have an importer who listens to customers but it is up to customers to put their money where their mouth is and BUY the motorcycles.
Right now the GG Factory caters to its biggest clientelle, the EU buyer. Enduros in Europe have gas stops every 40-50kms max and generally the trails are wider open and faster so the same setups that work good in Italian Enduros probably arent that good in New Jersey. As already mentioned Europeans are generally smaller people than chubby North Americans so the spring rates and valving are just guesstimates.
It has only been in the last couple of years that KTM has made changes to the NA spec bikes from the EU spec bikes and this is only after NA gets 40% of KTMs bike sales.
Hopefully the GG factory can make some subtle changes to the bikes for the NA buyer but they are a smaller company and just dont have the infastructure to make huge changes overnight especially for a market that is only selling 500 units per year.
We, the buyer, need to get behind the importer and the brand as a whole and start buying bikes. When we start buying bikes and get the numbers up so NA becomes GGs biggest market, then we can start whining and demanding that the factory changes the units to our liking.
Rant over.
Right now the GG Factory caters to its biggest clientelle, the EU buyer. Enduros in Europe have gas stops every 40-50kms max and generally the trails are wider open and faster so the same setups that work good in Italian Enduros probably arent that good in New Jersey. As already mentioned Europeans are generally smaller people than chubby North Americans so the spring rates and valving are just guesstimates.
It has only been in the last couple of years that KTM has made changes to the NA spec bikes from the EU spec bikes and this is only after NA gets 40% of KTMs bike sales.
Hopefully the GG factory can make some subtle changes to the bikes for the NA buyer but they are a smaller company and just dont have the infastructure to make huge changes overnight especially for a market that is only selling 500 units per year.
We, the buyer, need to get behind the importer and the brand as a whole and start buying bikes. When we start buying bikes and get the numbers up so NA becomes GGs biggest market, then we can start whining and demanding that the factory changes the units to our liking.
Rant over.
roostafish
Gold Level Site Supporter
After that rant, maybe I would just be happy with better fasteners.
The bikes work great. As an owner of now 4 different Gas Gas bikes, and spreading the word, there's only so much that can be done to sell bikes. For sure, this year alone I have sent paying customers to my local dealer and there are now 3 more Gas Gas riders in my area. He tells me that he has sold more Gas Gas motorcycles in 2010 than ever since becoming a Gas Gas dealer in 2005, in part because I try to get people to ride my bike and say how much I like it. The market share is not where KTM, or even Husqvarna is, but the market share is coming up. When people ride my bike, and like it, then go buy one, only to say WTF when they take the bike apart, that doesn't make me, or Gas Gas look good. It's a glitch that I put up with because the bike works so well, but clearly this is one area that can improve the world market for these bikes. Suspension would be nice, but frankly, mine's going to LTR no matter what brand name is on the bike. (Though I did just ride a 2011 KTM, and it exceeded all expectations suspension wise.)
The bikes work great. As an owner of now 4 different Gas Gas bikes, and spreading the word, there's only so much that can be done to sell bikes. For sure, this year alone I have sent paying customers to my local dealer and there are now 3 more Gas Gas riders in my area. He tells me that he has sold more Gas Gas motorcycles in 2010 than ever since becoming a Gas Gas dealer in 2005, in part because I try to get people to ride my bike and say how much I like it. The market share is not where KTM, or even Husqvarna is, but the market share is coming up. When people ride my bike, and like it, then go buy one, only to say WTF when they take the bike apart, that doesn't make me, or Gas Gas look good. It's a glitch that I put up with because the bike works so well, but clearly this is one area that can improve the world market for these bikes. Suspension would be nice, but frankly, mine's going to LTR no matter what brand name is on the bike. (Though I did just ride a 2011 KTM, and it exceeded all expectations suspension wise.)
moto9
Silver Level Site Supporter
Clay,
That is a good list and the priority is pretty good too.
But I have to agree with roostafish, the fit and finish really needs to be brought to the forefront of the list.
If you want to capture more buyers the product must be as good if not better than your competition and GG is laking in that one area.
Suspension, ya, could be 2nd and that should be easy to do...contract LTR to spec out the valving and spring rates, I would think they would have a good database to supply a setting that would fit the masses.
That is a good list and the priority is pretty good too.
But I have to agree with roostafish, the fit and finish really needs to be brought to the forefront of the list.
If you want to capture more buyers the product must be as good if not better than your competition and GG is laking in that one area.
Suspension, ya, could be 2nd and that should be easy to do...contract LTR to spec out the valving and spring rates, I would think they would have a good database to supply a setting that would fit the masses.
Big bore two stroke, something from a 380 to a 500, keep it light . Refine the manual, take a note from Husquvarna and KTM's jetting charts ,clean up the english too. Get rid of all the allen key fasteners like on the triple clamps and oil plugs. Better stock handle bars and tires. And finally, EFI or DI 2t's. GG had one of the first working efi 4t's in the enduro market, why not a 2 banger?
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
You read my mind Scott.
dank
New member
oooooohhhh gotcha. i understand now.
Skidad
New member
This is really a 2 way street IMO. Yes it would be great if more GG bikes were sold here but at the same time in this day and age the manufacturer has no excuse not to make improvements that are bitched about year after year after year. Ther is no excuse for the clusterfu*K of different size fasteners and wrenches needed to work on the bikes. The larger tank size is asked for from guys all over the globe and has been for years. Would it be so hard for GG to send a bike to Acerbis and have them design a nice 3+ gallon tank? IMO a smaller manufacturer should be able to more easliy make changes than a larger company. You want to sell more bikes then you better be willing to listen and make the needed changes every year. All of the major things I see asked for would benefit GG bikes shipped anywhere in the world not just North America.
As far as suspension I think they have had the spring rates correct for the "average weight" guy for years (4.2 front/5.2 year). It's the valving choices that are poor and cause the problems. Now the Race version bikes are absolutely all wrong. Springs and valving both. I have not read one positive review of a Race models suspension yet except the Nambotin which is really a different animal. Even the Nambotin is probably to stiff for most of the buyers who purchase them but the TTX works so good they can "almost" get away with it. Even porky Clay
had to have his Nambotin suspension reworked.GG is making some very nice incremental improvements every year and the bikes have an eye candy look to them now which helps. Pushing them hard to make more important improvements is not asking to much especially if it will help sales just about anywhere (which it should). It's a 2 way street and really great we have Clay going to bat for us now and I believe it will only going to get better with him running the show in the future.....as long as he's willing to keep listening to all the suggestions and rants going on
I dont think anywhere except the USA are people asking for bigger tanks. If EVERYONE is asking for bigger tanks, then why is every bike company settling with 7.5-9.0L tanks today? I can tell you for a fact that Europeans are NOT asking for bigger tanks. Obviously I am in the minority, but I feel that a 9L tank is more than sufficient for racing. Lest we forget, Clarke makes a big tank already and I am hearing that Clockwork is working on one as well. FWIW, the top fastest rider in Ontario, Canada is running a STOCK 7L tank on his YZ250 2 stroke in enduro and XC races.
I read lots of reviews from around the world and it seems that again, NA riders are the only ones bitching about the suspension valving. I just read a UK magazine and they proclaimed the 2011 EC250/300s the best offroad bikes available today. They loved everything about the bikes including the suspension. We ride different terrain/trail types than guys in the UK do I guess?
As far as the various fasteners, have you worked on a new 2010-2011 bike? I have a 2011 in my garage and I pulled it completely apart and honestly didnt notice a big problem with anything until I read some posts here. There are a couple of fiddly things like the rr brake adjuster but none that I would consider a deal breaker to me especially after pulling the carb off an 09 CRF250R. The 2011 bikes are worlds better than my 2006 EC250 was. They are not comparable bikes.
In todays market and economic climate, we must be somewhat realistic on what we can ask an already cash strapped factory to redesign for a small market. GG does not have buckets of money right now. I do believe that they will listen and make changes but it will take time for Clay to prove himself as a capable distributor and the NA customer to prove that they are a viable market for GG. Until the last few months the USA has been a disaster for GG and I am sure that they are a little gun-shy about spending a ton of money there (I am in Canada). Dont forget that Canada has outsold the US for the last 5yrs which is pathetic when you consider we have 1/10 the population and we have winter.
Things will improve for GG in NA, we just need to be a little patient. Clay is like a chihuahua. He will natter and bark at the factory until they listen to him.
I read lots of reviews from around the world and it seems that again, NA riders are the only ones bitching about the suspension valving. I just read a UK magazine and they proclaimed the 2011 EC250/300s the best offroad bikes available today. They loved everything about the bikes including the suspension. We ride different terrain/trail types than guys in the UK do I guess?
As far as the various fasteners, have you worked on a new 2010-2011 bike? I have a 2011 in my garage and I pulled it completely apart and honestly didnt notice a big problem with anything until I read some posts here. There are a couple of fiddly things like the rr brake adjuster but none that I would consider a deal breaker to me especially after pulling the carb off an 09 CRF250R. The 2011 bikes are worlds better than my 2006 EC250 was. They are not comparable bikes.
In todays market and economic climate, we must be somewhat realistic on what we can ask an already cash strapped factory to redesign for a small market. GG does not have buckets of money right now. I do believe that they will listen and make changes but it will take time for Clay to prove himself as a capable distributor and the NA customer to prove that they are a viable market for GG. Until the last few months the USA has been a disaster for GG and I am sure that they are a little gun-shy about spending a ton of money there (I am in Canada). Dont forget that Canada has outsold the US for the last 5yrs which is pathetic when you consider we have 1/10 the population and we have winter.
Things will improve for GG in NA, we just need to be a little patient. Clay is like a chihuahua. He will natter and bark at the factory until they listen to him.
rosco
Gold Level Site Supporter
Clay, Just got the new bikes in today. They look as sharp as they do in the pictures. I'll probably have some coments later on after being around the bikes for awhile but for now they look great. I always thought that somebody needed to offer a fuel injected 2-stroke dirt bike. Maybe GasGas should be that somebody. Ross
GMP
Active member
+1
I too may be in the minority but the stock tank has never been an issue on three bikes over ten years. I say its nice to have an aftermarket option for the desert rider but I would not want to screw up the feel of the bike with a big OEM tank. The bikes are not gas hogs when jetted decent like some KTMs.
As far as fasteners, what keeps the cost down for the small Euro mfgs is using standard or available stuff rather than custom bolts like the Japaneese do. I don't see it being a big deal, maybe because I'm used to it like all the long time GG guys. So, its an 18mm on the link bolts rather than a more common 17mm, and a 15mm shock bolt. The chain roller bolt is a 12mm, probably because its purchased with the roller as a set. How much are these worth? How often do you service your linkage? With new o-rings, Castrol Pyroplex or Jet Lube Moly Paste its a once a year job if you keep the pressure washer away. It took me about two hours for total R&R of linkage and swingarm with clean and re-grease, only new o-rings.
Other stuff like valving is essentially free or close to it. Fixed fasteners on the frame are another example of minimal change with good return in value. These are the things I see addressed first.
You guys here who have ever spent any time in manufacturing / engineering and had to deal with marketing on a regular basis understand this. While its true that a smaller company is more flexible in some respects than a larger one, its also dependent on capital. Considering how things are in Europe right now, I'm happy and even a bit surprised GG is doing as well as they are.
Sorry, but I can't see how these complaints would break a deal after so many people blindly followed the crowd and bought that crap from Austria that beat you to death year after year, and collectively nodded there heads saying "its good". Marketing, not engineering genius on their part.
I too may be in the minority but the stock tank has never been an issue on three bikes over ten years. I say its nice to have an aftermarket option for the desert rider but I would not want to screw up the feel of the bike with a big OEM tank. The bikes are not gas hogs when jetted decent like some KTMs.
As far as fasteners, what keeps the cost down for the small Euro mfgs is using standard or available stuff rather than custom bolts like the Japaneese do. I don't see it being a big deal, maybe because I'm used to it like all the long time GG guys. So, its an 18mm on the link bolts rather than a more common 17mm, and a 15mm shock bolt. The chain roller bolt is a 12mm, probably because its purchased with the roller as a set. How much are these worth? How often do you service your linkage? With new o-rings, Castrol Pyroplex or Jet Lube Moly Paste its a once a year job if you keep the pressure washer away. It took me about two hours for total R&R of linkage and swingarm with clean and re-grease, only new o-rings.
Other stuff like valving is essentially free or close to it. Fixed fasteners on the frame are another example of minimal change with good return in value. These are the things I see addressed first.
You guys here who have ever spent any time in manufacturing / engineering and had to deal with marketing on a regular basis understand this. While its true that a smaller company is more flexible in some respects than a larger one, its also dependent on capital. Considering how things are in Europe right now, I'm happy and even a bit surprised GG is doing as well as they are.
Sorry, but I can't see how these complaints would break a deal after so many people blindly followed the crowd and bought that crap from Austria that beat you to death year after year, and collectively nodded there heads saying "its good". Marketing, not engineering genius on their part.
Clay
Banned
ScottyR;Things will improve for GG in NA said:You know, Scotty......I'm not sure if this is a compliment or what it is. Did you have a smile on your face when you typed this? You were prolly laughing your a** off, weren't you? I kinda see myself as more of a pit bull.
Even Skidad called me porky! A guy who gets called porky can't be a frigging ankle biter!
Clay
Banned
Now on to serious stuff......as bad as I hate to say it, Scott is right about the fuel tank being a (mainly) North American thing. We fought it at the orange company. We need to be able to race a 2 hour hs on one tank. They simply don't race that way in many other parts of the world. The CEO of Gas Gas told Ted and me at dinner one night in this really cool old restaurant in Gerona that they knew we (the US) had the most potential for growth for Gas Gas and they would make any changes they could for us THAT MADE BUSINESS SENSE. I have had a tiny bit of experience with tank manufacturing and know that a fuel tank mold can cost 10 to 15 thousand dollars to make. At 50 bikes per year that adds $300 per unit. At 500 bikes a year that adds $30 per unit. I think they will be able to see it makes business sense for us here if we order 500 plus units for 2012. Actually, I hope to order closer to 1000 but that's a whole 'nother thread.
On the fastener thing, I have to give props to GMP. GG buys a component from a supplier and simply takes it the way it comes form the supplier. I don't think they ask for an 8mm bolt from the clutch master assembly supplier. If we grow and become a more important customer and help GG grow and become a bigger customer for the parts suppliers, they will be able to ask for different fasteners. I don't think that many of the GG employees ride and I'm sure very few race so they don't know how frustrating this can be. Someone made the point that he maintains 3 bikes, two KTMs and one GG. He said he could do the two KTMs in the time it took to do his GG. I don't know if that was even on this thread. These things are running together. Maybe its the beer....!
Now...Skidad, you were also correct even though you insulted me. (I can take a jab as well as I give them. ) This is a two way street. I would like to point out that GG made a major change here in the US when they appointed us as their new distributor. They had and still have a huge amount of respect for their old distributor but they made the tough decision to make a change. Ramon Puentes has only been at GG for 2 or 3 years. Look at what he has done. The bikes have been improved dramatically and the factory appointed a new distributor under his leadership. I think things are still to come without us pushing them. With our help, we can get a few things changed each year until we have a really awesome motorcycle.
Let me make one point here.....Even though I have outlined my requests here doesn't mean I expect to get them all in one year. It may take several years but like my friend from the frozen north pointed out, I can be a pit bull! OK...he said chiwawa or however you spell 'small Mexican dog'.
Damn...just finished my last beer!
On the fastener thing, I have to give props to GMP. GG buys a component from a supplier and simply takes it the way it comes form the supplier. I don't think they ask for an 8mm bolt from the clutch master assembly supplier. If we grow and become a more important customer and help GG grow and become a bigger customer for the parts suppliers, they will be able to ask for different fasteners. I don't think that many of the GG employees ride and I'm sure very few race so they don't know how frustrating this can be. Someone made the point that he maintains 3 bikes, two KTMs and one GG. He said he could do the two KTMs in the time it took to do his GG. I don't know if that was even on this thread. These things are running together. Maybe its the beer....!
Now...Skidad, you were also correct even though you insulted me. (I can take a jab as well as I give them.
) This is a two way street. I would like to point out that GG made a major change here in the US when they appointed us as their new distributor. They had and still have a huge amount of respect for their old distributor but they made the tough decision to make a change. Ramon Puentes has only been at GG for 2 or 3 years. Look at what he has done. The bikes have been improved dramatically and the factory appointed a new distributor under his leadership. I think things are still to come without us pushing them. With our help, we can get a few things changed each year until we have a really awesome motorcycle. Let me make one point here.....Even though I have outlined my requests here doesn't mean I expect to get them all in one year. It may take several years but like my friend from the frozen north pointed out, I can be a pit bull! OK...he said chiwawa or however you spell 'small Mexican dog'.
Damn...just finished my last beer!
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