Opinion of Changes to US GG line for 2012

[GasGas]

How many enduro bikes is big orange selling in the US per year? How much market share do you think that you can steal from them? I'm just asking because what may not be viable now could be in coming years and maybe more so when working together with other importers around the globe to get a new model off the ground.

 

[HuskyDude]

KTM peaked at around 23,000 units sold in the US alone a few years ago.
We have a little ways to catch up to them.
But momentum is the key and between Clay Stuckey in the USA and Dave Fair up here in Canada we're gonna catchup while soon.

 

[aflica]

well said Huskydude

 

[aflica]

well said Huskydude

opps the old double post

 

[Clay]

How many enduro bikes is big orange selling in the US per year? How much market share do you think that you can steal from them? I'm just asking because what may not be viable now could be in coming years and maybe more so when working together with other importers around the globe to get a new model off the ground.

HD is correct that the orange company brought in 23k units in one year. There were minis and MX units in there too so only about 18k were off road bikes. Last year they only brought in something like 8k but they had a LOT of bikes in the pipeline on top of that 8k. I think that they will prolly retail 12k for the calendar year 2010, though again that includes minis and MX units. I don't have a market share goal. I have a profitability goal. I hear Husky is bringing in one thousand two hundred 2011 models. I would like to out sell them in a couple of years.
You're correct that other importers could make a new model easier to swallow. There are vertically challenged riders all over the world. I surely would not go out on a llimb for a new model right now without the help from other countries.
Clay

 

[Clay]

KTM peaked at around 23,000 units sold in the US alone a few years ago.
We have a little ways to catch up to them.
But momentum is the key and between Clay Stuckey in the USA and Dave Fair up here in Canada we're gonna catchup while soon.

HD
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it!
Clay

 

[lankydoug]

I just bought a used Gas Gas and a new Husky. I will spend about $1000.00 on each bike so that my 6'6" 205lb lanky self can ride them with some sort of fit. It would be nice if the factories would at least offer bikes in a sm med or lg size and at least get close on spring rate and valving plus the bar and seat height. It seems a shame to have new springs, bars, pegs, and possibly a seat pulled off the bike and on ebay immediately after purchasing the bike. I'm sure the vertically challenged feel the same way especially when they are buying smaller wheels and shortening suspension travel on top of the usual spring and valving mods. If Gas Gas is looking for a market share of the orange bikes this may be a way to sell a few extra bikes by simply being more organized and versatile enough to make a run of a few special bikes available.

I know that there is a lot of reasons why nobody does this yet. I'll bet that they are also a reflection of the same reasons that explain why the small manufacturing companies can't seem to gain on the big boys. Frankly, if you can't offer something better in quality, equal but cheaper, or easier to maintain or better service why should anyone switch?

 

[GasGas]

One easy thing that could be done is to order say 10-20 sets of shorter spec suspension. Then if a dealer wants a bike for a shorter rider he could just exchange the shock and forks for the shorter spec. If a dealer ended up with a bike with short suspension he would have the option of exchanging for some other dealers long spec suspension. Then just sell the extra units off at cost when updated units are coming down the pipe from the manufacturer. The same could be done for springs as well. I would really like to be able to buy my bike with the proper springs off the showroom floor. This kind of idea could even be tried with as few as say 5 sets. I could see a national spring exchange program being a big sucess. It could even be done at the dealer level.

 

[roostafish]

I'm going to hop onto a couple of these last posts.

As a Husky and Gas Gas rider, I think they're both great (09 WR 250 and 300, '08 EC250). I wish the Gas Gas was as easy to work on as the Husky, and I wish the Husky was as easy to ride as the Gas Gas. Hmm.

I think that Gas Gas can easily outsell Husqvarna with it's two stroke line. Husqvarna is very well established with it's four strokes (cough, ack). The WR 250 has a faster engine, and the Husky has the big Zoke fork, but I still prefer the Gas Gas if I have to ride fast in the woods. I've said it for years, all you have to do is get some people to ride these bikes and they will sell themselves.

As far as bike sizes go, I just happen to be that target sized rider, 5'10" tall, 155 pounds, so fit has never been an issue for me. But thinking about it, any suspension tech will be happy to shorten your suspension. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound very cost effective to import short suspension, that would likely need a revalve anyway depending on whether the rider was a kid, a woman, or a short fat dude.

On being tall, I feel for LankyDoug, because he probably would have been happier on a Husqvarna. They are tall. The bike still needs a revalve, but at least he wouldn't be cramped. Gas Gas bikes feel like they are "almost full scale" in comparison to a KTM or Husky. Like 7/8ths scale, at least to me. That's what I like about them. For a big guy, that might not be so hot.

 

[Fred1956]

The same could be done for springs as well. I would really like to be able to buy my bike with the proper springs off the showroom floor. This kind of idea could even be tried with as few as say 5 sets. I could see a national spring exchange program being a big sucess. It could even be done at the dealer level.

A novel idea on paper but as a suspension tech will tell you, just getting the right spring isn't the answer. Factory valving specs are matched to the spring rate, a lighter spring will immediately be 'overdamped' and heavier springs will be 'underdamped'. Unfortunately suspension components need to be balanced so, while this sounds good it probably wouldn't work in reality

 

[lankydoug]

Roostafish,

I agree with what you said about the Husky and the Gasser. After riding both it looks like my son will be riding the Gas Gas and I'll spend most of my time on the Husky. My son is only 6'4" and a little lighter than me, at least this month (he's 15 years old and growing fast).

I also agree with what Fred said about it's more than just springs, the valving has to match the spring rate.

My question for you since you are the targeted height/weight does the factory really work good for you right out of the crate? I noticed that you recommend LTR just like I do. If we are all going to re-valve and possibly re-spring our suspension who does the factory set up work for anyway?

PS. One of the main selling points for me on the Husky is that Les said he could make the 50mm Zokes work as sweet as the Ohlins on my Gas Gas.

 

[roostafish]

My question for you since you are the targeted height/weight does the factory really work good for you right out of the crate? I noticed that you recommend LTR just like I do. If we are all going to re-valve and possibly re-spring our suspension who does the factory set up work for anyway?

PS. One of the main selling points for me on the Husky is that Les said he could make the 50mm Zokes work as sweet as the Ohlins on my Gas Gas.

Let's start a new thread for the answer to that question in detail. Bottom line, most of the time stock works fine. There's good reason for a revalve though. I don't know who at the factory decides to valve the forks the way they come???? Both the Gasser and the Husky come with the same gnarly midstroke action.

So to get this back on track. Clay, can we have the suspension valved by someone who actually rides dirt bikes in the woods? I wonder who likes that midstroke spike?

 

[lankydoug]

Let's start a new thread for the answer to that question in detail. Bottom line, most of the time stock works fine. There's good reason for a revalve though. I don't know who at the factory decides to valve the forks the way they come???? Both the Gasser and the Husky come with the same gnarly midstroke action.

So to get this back on track. Clay, can we have the suspension valved by someone who actually rides dirt bikes in the woods? I wonder who likes that midstroke spike?

That's exactly what I was getting at, you just said it better. If it's a woods bike for a 160lb guy then a 160lb guy should not be able to improve the factory set up. Gas Gas should pay Les to show them the set up at least then it would be perfect for someone.

 

[Clay]

Let's start a new thread for the answer to that question in detail. Bottom line, most of the time stock works fine. There's good reason for a revalve though. I don't know who at the factory decides to valve the forks the way they come???? Both the Gasser and the Husky come with the same gnarly midstroke action.

So to get this back on track. Clay, can we have the suspension valved by someone who actually rides dirt bikes in the woods? I wonder who likes that midstroke spike?

Roosta,
I'm on it!
From what I can tell, the trees in Europe don't have roots!
Clay

 

[Clay]

That's exactly what I was getting at, you just said it better. If it's a woods bike for a 160lb guy then a 160lb guy should not be able to improve the factory set up. Gas Gas should pay Les to show them the set up at least then it would be perfect for someone.

I suspect that you guys are blaming the wrong group here. Since Marzocchi is the supplier and experts in the suspension area, I would think that Gas Gas allows Marzocchi to spec the valving for the fork. I doubt that Gas Gas tells them what they want. That's the way it was at KTM for a long time until Ryan Ragland got involved with testing suspension in the US in the east. That's when the WP stuff started making leaps and bounds in improvement. A lot of you guys seem to have a lot of confidence in Les. I'm absolutely sure it's justified. The problem with going with one regional suspension tuner is that you tend to get a set up that works great in the kind of conditions that are in his area only. That may not be true of Les. He may have different set ups for different parts of the country. I need to get an opinion from several suspension gurus to try to hit something that may work for 75% of the riders out there. There is such a diversity in the east alone that it's hard to suit everyone. You have sand whoops in FL and rocks everywhere in NE. Throw in high speed desert stuff and it is tough to make evertyone happy! However, the biggest problem I see is that most of the stuff is valved/sprung for a 150 to 160 pound rider. We need to hit the 185 to 195 pound guy for the US because we eat more Big Macs.
Suspension ain't easy but we're on it!
Clay

 

[dank]

That's exactly what I was getting at, you just said it better. If it's a woods bike for a 160lb guy then a 160lb guy should not be able to improve the factory set up. Gas Gas should pay Les to show them the set up at least then it would be perfect for someone.

clay mentioned different terrain, but valving also involves skill level. taddy blazusiak may weigh 180 (made up) and i may weigh 180, but our suspension would be set up significantly different. the factory suspension can really only fit average weight, average height, average skill level riders. if you want it to fit specifically to you, you have to get it custom valved and sprung. there is no way for the factory to custom valve and spring for a specific customer efficiently.

 

[Clay]

clay mentioned different terrain, but valving also involves skill level. taddy blazusiak may weigh 180 (made up) and i may weigh 180, but our suspension would be set up significantly different. the factory suspension can really only fit average weight, average height, average skill level riders. if you want it to fit specifically to you, you have to get it custom valved and sprung. there is no way for the factory to custom valve and spring for a specific customer efficiently.

Dank,
You are exactly right!
Clay

 

[lankydoug]

I suspect that you guys are blaming the wrong group here. Since Marzocchi is the supplier and experts in the suspension area, I would think that Gas Gas allows Marzocchi to spec the valving for the fork. I doubt that Gas Gas tells them what they want. That's the way it was at KTM for a long time until Ryan Ragland got involved with testing suspension in the US in the east. That's when the WP stuff started making leaps and bounds in improvement. A lot of you guys seem to have a lot of confidence in Les. I'm absolutely sure it's justified. The problem with going with one regional suspension tuner is that you tend to get a set up that works great in the kind of conditions that are in his area only. That may not be true of Les. He may have different set ups for different parts of the country. I need to get an opinion from several suspension gurus to try to hit something that may work for 75% of the riders out there. There is such a diversity in the east alone that it's hard to suit everyone. You have sand whoops in FL and rocks everywhere in NE. Throw in high speed desert stuff and it is tough to make evertyone happy! However, the biggest problem I see is that most of the stuff is valved/sprung for a 150 to 160 pound rider. We need to hit the 185 to 195 pound guy for the US because we eat more Big Macs.
Suspension ain't easy but we're on it!
Clay

Clay, that seems to fall right back to the reason for three different models. Cross country bikes set up for wide open desert, woods bikes and motocross. If American dealers can get together an make the American models more "big man" friendly that's even better. I'm glad you're on it and I believe if you succeed in doing it Gas Gas sales will rise and the aftermarket goodies will follow.

 

[HuskyDude]

Clay are these threads on here some how being translated for the R&D guys back at the factory or are you just in touch with them?
It would be great if some how we could get some input from them.
Just a thought.

 

[Clay]

Clay are these threads on here some how being translated for the R&D guys back at the factory or are you just in touch with them?
It would be great if some how we could get some input from them.
Just a thought.

HD,
It's being translated to South Georgia Redneck english and then it will be translated to Spanish.
To be serious for once, I am not sending the threads to anyone at the factory. I am taking notes on the issues discussed here. Honestly, the differences in opinion would confuse them. I have to kind of read all of the input and come to some sort of central decision. There's no way too please everyone so we have to hit some mid point.
The new export manager, Jordi Verdauger, is coming to our office in early January. I plan to discuss these issues with him then. I have also asked to go to the factory in April and will discuss, again, then.
All of the things we want may not happen this year. Only a few may happen. As we become a bigger customer for them, I hope they place more trust in us. It was funny at KTM. The Austrians seemed to resent the US even though the US sold 40% of KTMs motorcycles. I have the impression that we will be better received from the Spanish brand. The seem to welcome our business. I hope they welcome out input, too.
Clay