Revised Jetting Specs NEDW
- Thread starter Jakobi
- Start date
Jakobi
Super Moderator
edit, now I see the chart, I'm going to have to get the jd jet database, looks like it's worth the 20 $ just to help setup when I go from the coast and then up to the mountains
I only had ping at 1/2 throttle when riding steady in the deep powder sand, ie not accelerating and not decelerating, just holding it a steady speed in deep sand, no ping above 3/4 throttle, it did not ping on hardpack at all this was with the original setup. I never had ping with the CCK, at #3 it did not pull well at all, and I did not even hit the sand, I went up to 5 after 1/2 mile, and it pulled a lot better, I could probably have dropped down to 4 but I did not have time to mess with it, we were riding with other people.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
I just re-attched the image.. Its a 2 stroke.. you don't ride them at constant throttle.. Is it a confirmed ping, or just a noise.. The powervalve setup has quite a bit of tolerance and will rattle a bit at certain revs with vibration. The pipes are also known to vibe on the spigot/header. Does the bike still respond crisply from 1/2 throttle? Does it miss or hesitiate, bog, or do anything else while revving through 1/2 throttle?
ping, not a rattle, and the plug was scary looking lean, I know the difference in sound, 30 years of riding two strokes, and several kx500's teaches you what ping sounds like.
and I ride at a steady throttle in the sand, I dont wanna die, I have a hard enough time just staying upright in the stuff
Jakobi
Super Moderator
And another image. This shows the NOZF#4.5 which is same as N1EF#4/5 (can't remember which is a half clip leaner). As you can see this is well rich. I've gtg get a few things done. Have a read and a play and see how you go. I still think that there is no reason that a bike with a 36mm carb would have to be jetted that rich unless if somethings not quite right.
Attachments
I had the cck with a 175 main, the chart shows a 178 and 180 main
is this jd jet guide a digital download or do I have to wait for them to ship me a cd?
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Sorry my bad. My version of the spreadsheet is that old I can't remember. From 2002.. The main jet only changes the chart from 1/2 - WOT. Imagine drawing the line in by hand to taper back to the base line 175 main.
Heres another example I pulled from the jetting database thread to support my theory.
Post #16
'07 EC250, temperature around 0 C (-5 - +5), elevation 0 to 100m, 10 kms distance from sea, TTS 50:1, Unleaded super 98, 10ml ethanol additive per tank to help against carb icing, the air intakes of one of the radiator covered with tape, protection for the carb from snow and to guide warm air from the cylinder to carb boot.
Pilot: 45, 1 turn out
Needle: N1EF #3
Slide #7
Main : 185
This is at sea level in snow, from -5C to +5C. You're needle is running well richer than this even.
And I'll say it again.. The 36mm carb will require leaner jetting than a 38mm carb..
Leaving it with you. Use your 30 years 2 stroke experience to investigate why your bike is pinging. All the data is saying its not to do with your needle/jets/clip position. I'd be having a visual inspection of the base gasket stack to try and count how many between the cases and cyl, and then taking the head off to measure the squish and inspect the piston crown for signs of detonation and piston wash. Both should be visible if its been running as you say.
Heres another example I pulled from the jetting database thread to support my theory.
Post #16
'07 EC250, temperature around 0 C (-5 - +5), elevation 0 to 100m, 10 kms distance from sea, TTS 50:1, Unleaded super 98, 10ml ethanol additive per tank to help against carb icing, the air intakes of one of the radiator covered with tape, protection for the carb from snow and to guide warm air from the cylinder to carb boot.
Pilot: 45, 1 turn out
Needle: N1EF #3
Slide #7
Main : 185
This is at sea level in snow, from -5C to +5C. You're needle is running well richer than this even.
And I'll say it again.. The 36mm carb will require leaner jetting than a 38mm carb..
Leaving it with you. Use your 30 years 2 stroke experience to investigate why your bike is pinging. All the data is saying its not to do with your needle/jets/clip position. I'd be having a visual inspection of the base gasket stack to try and count how many between the cases and cyl, and then taking the head off to measure the squish and inspect the piston crown for signs of detonation and piston wash. Both should be visible if its been running as you say.
I would not compare to a strange gas mixture like that, and 50:1 is quite a bit less oil than we run, I run 36:1, and I cant tell if that's a 36 or 38mm
I ran 40/n1ef #2-3 175 main here at my house, like I said I cant run that at the ocean in the sand, what I run here at my house is leaner than what that guy runs. But when I drop down to sea level and high humidity it does not work at all, mainly the 1/2 throttle range
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Why are you running 36:1? A good quality oil at recommended ratio works well too. Your choice but will require richer jetting. You should have specified this earlier.
What is the difference in elevation between home and beach?
While going lower in elevation the air gets thicker. More air needs more fuel. You need to jet richer.
Humidity is the opposite. Moisture takes up room so less oxygen in the same air mix. Requires leaner jetting.
All models previous to 2011 had 38mm PWK AS carbs (black screw top cap). These required richer jetting.
In 2010 PWK ASII carbs were on some bikes. Owners noticed the carb was more efficient. Leaner jetting required.
The 36mm PWK ASII on some 2011 models.. Smaller carb size pulls more air and more fuel with each stroke of the piston. Requires leaner jetting.
Yet... You're getting for beach riding is well well well above any other info from another bike of any other year when yours should be one of the leaner jetted setups. I've offered all the advice I can.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
JD Jetting won't plot the 2008+ NEDx suzuki range. Thus why I can't give you an accurate description. As suggested. Put the needle in the clip (the richest one will give you peace of mind) and ride the bike. It'll tell you a world more than any spreadsheet and you'll know in the next 15mins if you do it right now.
i just bought the jetting guide, the version I got from thumpertalk is dated jan 2009, and it wont do NEDW
it is helpful to see what one clip drop does on the cck, I may just stick with this needle, drop to #4 and go up to a 180 main and see if that cleans it up
cck#4 and 180 main is the exact same at 1/2 throttle as cck#5 and 175 main
are there any multi taper needles in the JD database that are close to either the NEDW ?
it is helpful to see what one clip drop does on the cck, I may just stick with this needle, drop to #4 and go up to a 180 main and see if that cleans it up
cck#4 and 180 main is the exact same at 1/2 throttle as cck#5 and 175 main
are there any multi taper needles in the JD database that are close to either the NEDW ?
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Jakobi
Super Moderator
Nothing that I am aware of with the NEDx/NECx range. The N1Ex and NOZx follow the same tapers but are a half clip different. Off the top of my head I can't remember which one is leaner though.
Grab a handfull of needles and dedicate a day to trying them out. Really is the only true way to know how they'll run in your bike. You'd have to be very unlucky to seize up even with super lean jetting unless if you jumped on and went flat out right off the bat. Plenty of signs point to being lean before damage is done.
JD Jetting wise while you can't plot the exact tapers of the NEDx range, we have estabilished that it is similar to the N3Ex range regarding clip positions, and gets much richer in the mid and upper range which means you usually have to drop 2 sizes on the main to end up the same. The rich middle and upper tapers of this needle is probably just what you're looking for.
Grab a handfull of needles and dedicate a day to trying them out. Really is the only true way to know how they'll run in your bike. You'd have to be very unlucky to seize up even with super lean jetting unless if you jumped on and went flat out right off the bat. Plenty of signs point to being lean before damage is done.
JD Jetting wise while you can't plot the exact tapers of the NEDx range, we have estabilished that it is similar to the N3Ex range regarding clip positions, and gets much richer in the mid and upper range which means you usually have to drop 2 sizes on the main to end up the same. The rich middle and upper tapers of this needle is probably just what you're looking for.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
It was 30C and 60% RH here in the tropics today. The bike was running a bit too rich for my liking. Good power but alot of 4 stroking both just off idle and on the needle a bit too. This time last year I was running the N3Cx on clip 2. Or on the really humid days N3Ex on clip 1.
I like my 2 stroke to be as clean and crisp as possible. Looking for throttle resp as well as fuel economy. I think I might order the NECW tomorrow, and maybe a NECJ aswell. Might consider doing a test run in clip 1 just for shits and giggles, but I'd dare say it would be too lean to be safe for 24/7
I like my 2 stroke to be as clean and crisp as possible. Looking for throttle resp as well as fuel economy. I think I might order the NECW tomorrow, and maybe a NECJ aswell. Might consider doing a test run in clip 1 just for shits and giggles, but I'd dare say it would be too lean to be safe for 24/7
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Still waiting on that kick starter shaft? That blows. Been weeks now! Even worse knowing you have a fresh top end and high comp head and can't even take it for a test ride on the bum dyno!
Smart cookie getting both needles at once. Not sure where you'll end up on your jetting but odds are it'll be a fair clip richer than me. Must have better air down there
Update: Another stinker of a day up here made worse by a few too many cool ones last night. Sitting in the high 20's with a top of 31. Humidity up around 60% again. Did a test run with 40 NEDW#1 172. The bike ran much crisper right off idle through the top. The previous slightly rich burble at mid range is now gone and the bike just hauls through. Hard to grasp if its down on power or not. Its not as willing to lift the front end on the pipe but might have been my body language as I was just in shoes and shorts/shirt, and I think I was spinning the wheel more than hooking up. Didn't crack it on the black stuff as it chews out tyres like theres no tomorrow.
The engine/exhaust was quite toasty at the end of it all. Maybe a bit warmer than normal. Didn't rip a plug chop yet.
I noticed there is no more burble at 1/4 throttle, or 1/2 throttle, which there was on clip 2. Idle and resp off the bottom is much the same (perfect). Top end pulls same as it did before. Its very much a smooth clean rip. Riding 1st gear single track was much easier without having to deal with the 1/4 throttle burble as it was smooth instead of on/offish. At any time/revs pulling the clutch allowed the revs to fall straight back to idle. I also noted the vibrations are have definately been reduced from what they were. I may head out for some fire trails this afternoon and do a couple plug chops for peace of mind.
The NECW has been ordered and I believe this will be ideal on #2 for me, same as the N3CH was. NEDx/N3Ex on clip 1 might be a tad too close to the line.
Smart cookie getting both needles at once. Not sure where you'll end up on your jetting but odds are it'll be a fair clip richer than me. Must have better air down there
Update: Another stinker of a day up here made worse by a few too many cool ones last night. Sitting in the high 20's with a top of 31. Humidity up around 60% again. Did a test run with 40 NEDW#1 172. The bike ran much crisper right off idle through the top. The previous slightly rich burble at mid range is now gone and the bike just hauls through. Hard to grasp if its down on power or not. Its not as willing to lift the front end on the pipe but might have been my body language as I was just in shoes and shorts/shirt, and I think I was spinning the wheel more than hooking up. Didn't crack it on the black stuff as it chews out tyres like theres no tomorrow.
The engine/exhaust was quite toasty at the end of it all. Maybe a bit warmer than normal. Didn't rip a plug chop yet.
I noticed there is no more burble at 1/4 throttle, or 1/2 throttle, which there was on clip 2. Idle and resp off the bottom is much the same (perfect). Top end pulls same as it did before. Its very much a smooth clean rip. Riding 1st gear single track was much easier without having to deal with the 1/4 throttle burble as it was smooth instead of on/offish. At any time/revs pulling the clutch allowed the revs to fall straight back to idle. I also noted the vibrations are have definately been reduced from what they were. I may head out for some fire trails this afternoon and do a couple plug chops for peace of mind.
The NECW has been ordered and I believe this will be ideal on #2 for me, same as the N3CH was. NEDx/N3Ex on clip 1 might be a tad too close to the line.
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Jakobi
Super Moderator
Smashed it out on the top clip for a while. Bike ran nicely. I get annoyed with a bit of noise as the bike comes onto the pipe. It does this on all clips.
Clip 1 crisp crisp crispy. Smooth power off the bottom, mid to top is very strong and responsive. It has sacrificed some bottom end torque though. Bike less willing to loft the front end off idle/bottom. Bike runs alot cleaner though without as much smoke or burble.
Then flicked back to clip 3 for a comparison. 3 Is very very strong everywhere. Open the throttle and hold on. The trade off is that it runs like a complete pig. Anything other than feeding it and all it wants to do is burble and cough. When you do open the throttle it will loft the wheel with ease. Might just be that I am opening it to almost wot to get it to clean out. Even then cracking it hard it 1st and 2nd makes it feel like its running rich.
At the end of the day I'm still in position 2 as I like the torque off the bottom. I'll hold out like this for another week until the NECW arrives at which point it'll be a bit warmer and more humid and should fit into clip 2 nicely.
Cheers! Been a great week. Had the bike out 3 consecutive days! Living the dream!
Clip 1 crisp crisp crispy. Smooth power off the bottom, mid to top is very strong and responsive. It has sacrificed some bottom end torque though. Bike less willing to loft the front end off idle/bottom. Bike runs alot cleaner though without as much smoke or burble.
Then flicked back to clip 3 for a comparison. 3 Is very very strong everywhere. Open the throttle and hold on. The trade off is that it runs like a complete pig. Anything other than feeding it and all it wants to do is burble and cough. When you do open the throttle it will loft the wheel with ease. Might just be that I am opening it to almost wot to get it to clean out. Even then cracking it hard it 1st and 2nd makes it feel like its running rich.
At the end of the day I'm still in position 2 as I like the torque off the bottom. I'll hold out like this for another week until the NECW arrives at which point it'll be a bit warmer and more humid and should fit into clip 2 nicely.
Cheers! Been a great week. Had the bike out 3 consecutive days! Living the dream!
