where to go from here. jetting q.

[stainlesscycle]

Bad reeds alone will do what you describe (sloppy low end), and I know for a fact and from experience that some of the fiberglass Boyesen reeds on the RAD valve get affected by modern pump fuel. If its an '03 I'd consider the reeds junk unless you replaced them yourself.

i would think it would be incredibly difficult to start and even ride with bad reeds... i had a reed crack on my 200 and it was tough to even keep it running enough to limp home.

i replace reeds every couple of years whether they are good or not. they will fail eventually, and it's something you cannot repair on the trail.

the good thing about your whole dilemma is you will know more about your bike then you did when you started

once you get it all sorted out you won't need to play with it anymore (unless you're like me and constantly tinkering/searching for the 'perfect' state of tune...)

 

[dank]

its a breeze to start. kick maybe 3 times if its been sitting and a little cold. choke or no choke. primed or not. and its not a major blurble at the low end, just a little sluggish, like the air screw is out of tune, even though i try to tune it most times i ride. oh well, i may as well check it anyways. im gunna take the carb off to check float height, so theyre going to be right there anyhow.

 

[iancp5]

Cool!

When I eventually find some time to strip down the engine I shall put the 36mm on. By the way I assume you know the CCK needle is a DDK shifted by half a clip position - in case you need some fine adjustment. I need check over the motor as it was sounding a bit odd during the Welsh. So odd I pulled out at the end of day 1.

 

[biggstr6]

This has got me thinking . How do you tell if the primary crank seal is leaking?

I'm a hypocondriact (SP) when it comes to bikes.

 

[GMP]

By the way I assume you know the CCK needle is a DDK shifted by half a clip position - in case you need some fine adjustment.

This is incorrect. The first letter defines the taper structure or series, in this case your comparing a C series with a D series, the C taper being leaner. The DDK and DEK are in fact a half clip equivalent different, which is why I mentioned them both. If your interested, get a copy of James Dean's Excel spread sheet that allows complete jetting spec comparisons across the throrttle range including altitude and temp corrections. Its very useful and informative.

I change reeds when I do a top end, and always find some minor fraying damage. Yeah if you have a big crack or missing part then the bike will be a bear to start, but smaller leaks can raise hell with the low end. I found a very strange condition on my '03 where the fiberglass resin on the Boyesen RAD valve reeds was being broken down by something in the fuel, the reeds were actually sticky to the touch.

Not saying this is your problem but it is all relatively easy to check and will eliminate any unknowns.

biggstr6,

If your primary crank seal is leaking you will suck trans oil in and the bike will smoke like you have a 10:1 mix in the tank. Ever see a bike like this? Looks like one of those trucks some towns use in summer that fog for mosquitos.

 

[stainlesscycle]

If your primary crank seal is leaking you will suck trans oil in and the bike will smoke like you have a 10:1 mix in the tank. Ever see a bike like this? Looks like one of those trucks some towns use in summer that fog for mosquitos.

yep, leaky crank seals are pretty easy to spot. right side seal will fog the neighborhood. left side seal is instantly identifiable - bike will race and not return to idle no matter what you do (and will quickly hole a piston if you're not careful....)



jd's spreadsheet is great for experimenting on the bench - you can plug in minor changes and it charts lean rich compared to what you have. right ow i have a minor lean spot at 3/4 throttle. gotta plug in some numbers and see where i can get it a tad richer there...

on another note, i got a colortune from someone for my birthday - not something i would ever buy, but since it was free i'm gonna give it a try on a 4t and see how it works. should be neato.

 

[Fred1956]

If your interested, get a copy of James Dean's Excel spread sheet that allows complete jetting spec comparisons across the throrttle range including altitude and temp corrections. Its very useful and informative.

Where is this spreadsheet you speak of...... I want one

 

[stainlesscycle]

google

JD_Jetting_2002.xls

 

[iancp5]

This is incorrect. The first letter defines the taper structure or series, in this case your comparing a C series with a D series, the C taper being leaner. The DDK and DEK are in fact a half clip equivalent different, which is why I mentioned them both.

See what you mean!

But looking at a needle chart the length difference DDK -> DEK is 1.5 clips? Is that correct?

 

[GMP]

No, its .5 clip positions or about .45 mm between the two needles in the same position. if you get the spreadsheet you can verify this by comparing the two needles.

That spreadsheet is good, I jetted a GG125 from scratch with a different needle and the simulation was as close as it gets when I actually rode the bike. A large selection of needles are possible, except his, which are propriatary. If you can get the bike running pretty good with a DDK, the JD Blue will work even better.

Does that colortune work on a 2-stroke? We put a wideband AFR sensor/controller with a narrowband emulator in my brother's Buell XB9. It also has a small AFR gauge on the bars and can log complete ECU run time data to a laptop in a backpack. Very cool, really got the map dialed in close with that setup.

 

[iancp5]

No, its .5 clip positions or about .45 mm between the two needles in the same position. if you get the spreadsheet you can verify this by comparing the two needles.

That spreadsheet is good, I jetted a GG125 from scratch with a different needle and the simulation was as close as it gets when I actually rode the bike. A large selection of needles are possible, except his, which are propriatary. If you can get the bike running pretty good with a DDK, the JD Blue will work even better.

GMP, I have taken your advice and ordered the JD spreadsheets. I'm still confused over the clip positions. Looking at a Keihin needle chart it gives L1 (length to taper start) as 38.15mm for DEK and 36.8mm for DDK. Does that not mean 1.5 clips leaner on DEK? Am I reading it wrong?

 

[RBD]

Just a note about the L1 length;

The L1 length of the Keihin needles is not where the taper starts.

The L1 length is measured at a point on the taper it self where the taper measures 2.515 mm in diameter. The 2.515 mm is a constant where all the needles L1 measurements are taken.

Given that the measurement is taken at the 2.515 mm diameter, the actual taper will start sooner on a "C" needle than a "D" series needle with the same L1 length and needle diameter. The diameter of the needle will also change the actual beginning of the taper as well.

So, L1 is not where the taper starts, but rather a reference point of the taper in relationship to clip position.

Ron

 

[Bong]

I have 2 DDK needles with clips if anyone is interested. $7.50 each USPS 1st class, US mail. PM if interested.

 

[iancp5]

Just got the JD jetting spreadsheets. Very useful tool.

 

[biggstr6]

Here is a page from a french gasgas site that has jetting recommendations. I dont know how where they are is compared to where you are ,but the info might be helpfull.


If you look to the right in the third yellow section there is a link for carbuerator Adjustment recommendations

Then You can scroll down to find your year & model.

http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...sgasons.com/index.php?site=static&staticID=49

 

[chucky]

I see the french site recomends the following for a 2006-2007 GasGas EC200

needle NOZI ( 2008 ktm 200 needle)
178 main
50 pilot
clip# 2
slide #6

Hmmm this puts a spanner in the works , I am battling to get needles here in South Africa , perhaps I should give this setting a bash ( can purchase the needle from KTM agents)

I assume these settings are for sea level , will have to use the manuals jetting chart for the correction factor ( altitude here 4000-5000ft)

 

[dank]

ok an update from tinkering. i turned the carb and changed out pilots to a 42 from a 40. got way worse. so i went down to a 38. runs much better, but i could probably do a 35. at this point im not going to worry about it, because it is very good right now. next is to get the needle happy and then the main. checked the reeds, there was no signs of cracks or fraying. so do you think i should be moving the clip on the needle, or just head straight for the main? rons suggestions for the cck on the middle clip are fantastic in the lower-mid to mid range, but once i get past about 2/3 it goes flat and sputtery, kindof like i just run out of steam and have to swap to another gear. which makes me either think that i need to move the clip a position or change the main. that or its the powervalve sticking, which i have not had the time to check yet. i dont think so, because if i rap on it enough the bike will get into that RPM range and there is that pipey hit there, i just think that its either the main or the needle that is restricting me from achieving that rpm range, as i can only get to it when im riding out on the field road in at least 3rd gear over the hills.

 

[iancp5]

Got the EC200 back together this weekend with the 36mm carb fitted. Tried the 45P, 178M, DDK on 3, #5 slide. Bike ticks over amazingly evenly for a GG. Only rode the bike up the road and it seemed rich on small openings with more 4 stroking than before. Checking on the JD spreadsheet it would need a 40P to match the old small throttle settings on the 38 carb (42P, 178M, N1EE needle on 2, #6 slide) but not sure that has any validity with a different carb size. It sure feels like it's too rich, gut feels says a 40P & 175M. With a smaller carb should I expect to jet down? Less air and stronger signal?

 

[stainlesscycle]

Got the EC200 back together this weekend with the 36mm carb fitted. Tried the 45P, 178M, DDK on 3, #5 slide. Bike ticks over amazingly evenly for a GG. Only rode the bike up the road and it seemed rich on small openings with more 4 stroking than before. Checking on the JD spreadsheet it would need a 40P to match the old small throttle settings on the 38 carb (42P, 178M, N1EE needle on 2, #6 slide) but not sure that has any validity with a different carb size. It sure feels like it's too rich, gut feels says a 40P & 175M. With a smaller carb should I expect to jet down? Less air and stronger signal?

smaller carb size = more fuel/air velocity, so the spreadsheet won't really work.
if it feels too rich it probably is. i went way rich thinking that the smaller carb wouldn't flow as much fuel. i was wrong.. i'm still tinkering with my 36mm, but i'm at 42/178/ddk on 2/#5 slide/1.5 turns. i'm probably gonna go to 175 on main.. i know that i started using the 36mm carb with the exact same jetting as the 38mm, and it was way rich.

 

[iancp5]

smaller carb size = more fuel/air velocity, so the spreadsheet won't really work.
if it feels too rich it probably is. i went way rich thinking that the smaller carb wouldn't flow as much fuel. i was wrong.. i'm still tinkering with my 36mm, but i'm at 42/178/ddk on 2/#5 slide/1.5 turns. i'm probably gonna go to 175 on main.. i know that i started using the 36mm carb with the exact same jetting as the 38mm, and it was way rich.

I'm thinking I might try a 40P & 175M.
The guy who had the bike before me used a 159M in the 36mm! But he did have some weird needle in there and the catalyst exhaust on. It was well down on power with that exhaust.