APT SmartCarb

[Corey]

I can tell you for a fact the throttle response in very very crisp, clean, and percise. Oh..... no more spooge . They can be your 5,6, & 7. Love my SmartCarb!

Thanks again everyone for your interest in the SmartCarb and all the warm accolades. I also want to thank my good friends Clay Stuckey and Dale Malesek our excellent GasGas importers for the USA, and especially want to thank Girard (gasgasman) for starting this whole thing and purchasing the first one. I penciled Deut 8:18 as a sign on the inside back cover of his owners manual so I would never forget what this is really all about. Girard I hope we can make the TSCEC banquet and I'm still working on putting that together.

We realize the SC is new to most people and we really want people to understand the distinction, benefits and potential of the carburetor as we move into another era of motorcycle development and emissions reduction strategies that will keep our two strokes around for a long long time.

Moving the conversation on, we have the GG factory testing a 27mm on the TXT 300 and a new 38mm on 250-300 enduros right now and should know a lot real soon. Happy New Year everyone! Corey

 

[john01]

Look forward to reading their response. I'd wish you luck Corey but I really don't think you will need it as the SmartCarb will speak for it's self. Thanks for keeping us updated as I know you must be extreamly busy. Oh ...yes Happy New Year!

 

[n_green]

Does anyone have real world fuel consumption comparison figures yet?

I'm buying one anyway especially given the difficulty in having jetting my oval bore. Has fuel consumption equal to a A380 jet at the moment.

Best economy I've got so far was about 10 liters per hundred k's. (about 23 mpg?) So roughly 90k's (55miles) of riding per tank.

I've no doubt everything will improve with the smart carb especially throttle response, but I'd like to see real world figures from those of you with them. I know I know when you have something so awesome why would you waste time working out fuel consumption for anyone.

At the very least can you say I used to hit reserve at xx miles with my keihin carb, now I get to xx with the smart carb?

Corey really stupid question but will the billet and cast smart carbs have identical consumption?

 

[stabak]

Does anyone have real world fuel consumption comparison figures yet?

I'm buying one anyway especially given the difficulty in having jetting my oval bore. Has fuel consumption equal to a A380 jet at the moment.

Best economy I've got so far was about 10 liters per hundred k's. (about 23 mpg?) So roughly 90k's (55miles) of riding per tank.

I've no doubt everything will improve with the smart carb especially throttle response, but I'd like to see real world figures from those of you with them. I know I know when you have something so awesome why would you waste time working out fuel consumption for anyone.

At the very least can you say I used to hit reserve at xx miles with my keihin carb, now I get to xx with the smart carb?

Corey really stupid question but will the billet and cast smart carbs have identical consumption?

+1
Those questions should be roughly clarified, since a lot of 300 specialy setups & mods have indirectly the fuel consumption in mind...

 

[Gasgasogeros]

sc manual

hi corey where can find , end download manual for smart carb i need more info about this
thank

 

[arminhammer]

Don't want to bring the drama back but Kelly is a lectron dealer now,big surprise.
That guy is so transparent.

Would like to thank Corey for answering all the questions people have tossed his way.

 

[erniebearskin]

ummmm, can I have my Smartcarb now.....in the spirit of Christmas miracles

 

[Corey]

Don't want to bring the drama back but Kelly is a lectron dealer now,big surprise.
That guy is so transparent.

Would like to thank Corey for answering all the questions people have tossed his way.

Thanks. I think everything is real clear, now it's time to move forward. I'm travelling over the next several days and I'll answer everyone's questions when I land somewhere. Hope everyone has a great New Year, it's going to be good!

 

[KellyMZ]

I tried two carbs. They both worked very nice. I knew nothing about these carbs before people sent them to me out of the blue to test (it is all there in print). Loved the APT, said so and spent hours writing glowing reviews after many miles testing it. Loved the Lectron. The Lectron has a dealer program, APT does not as I asked to get on it (which is completely fine). I really liked the guy from Lectron, the 35 years of history and testing, willingness to set them up for specific bikes etc. I signed up. It really is that simple. I did not do this maliciously nor did I ever intend to sell carbs. I really like the APT and hope them the best. There is room for everyone.

Transparent

 

[singletracker]

It looks like there are two great "alternative" carbs to pick from. I've read about both of them and it appears that they both have their pluses and minuses, but both are better than a well set up stock carb. Pick your poison.

I would like to thank both Kelly and Corey for the time they've spent providing information about these carbs. The time that Corey has spent answering questions about the Smart Carb is phenomenal and speaks volumes about the likelihood that APT will provide great customer service. After reading the little dispute that took place here I went to Cafe Husky and read Kelly's reviews on both carbs. It does seem that he was being impartial and giving fair reviews for all of the carbs that he tested. All-in-all he spoke very favorably about the Smart Carb and the Lectron. I think he just made a business decision to sell the Lectron, and is still a stand-up kind of guy.

I'm anxious to hear more reviews when the cast production models hit the shelves.

 

[n_green]

It looks like there are two great "alternative" carbs to pick from. I've read about both of them and it appears that they both have their pluses and minuses, but both are better than a well set up stock carb. Pick your poison.

I would like to thank both Kelly and Corey for the time they've spent providing information about these carbs. The time that Corey has spent answering questions about the Smart Carb is phenomenal and speaks volumes about the likelihood that APT will provide great customer service. After reading the little dispute that took place here I went to Cafe Husky and read Kelly's reviews on both carbs. It does seem that he was being impartial and giving fair reviews for all of the carbs that he tested. All-in-all he spoke very favorably about the Smart Carb and the Lectron. I think he just made a business decision to sell the Lectron, and is still a stand-up kind of guy.

I'm anxious to hear more reviews when the cast production models hit the shelves.

Is there a link to said reviews? Do you have to a member over there to read it?

 

[Rick]

No member...required....have fun.....

 

[KellyMZ]

It looks like there are two great "alternative" carbs to pick from. I've read about both of them and it appears that they both have their pluses and minuses, but both are better than a well set up stock carb. Pick your poison.

There are actually many other alternative carbs if you look around.

PSI - http://www.psicarbs.com I tried this one a few years ago, was not for me and probably not the right application.

CPI - http://www.cpcracing.com/site/256083/page/190735

and several others. All are trying to do something and fill some need.

After reading the little dispute that took place here I went to Cafe Husky and read Kelly's reviews on both carbs. It does seem that he was being impartial and giving fair reviews for all of the carbs that he tested.

Thank you. Was real disappointing to be part of a nasty pissing match and called transparent by people who knew nothing of the situation. I simply tested and reported on some carbs. The end. Wanted to be involved as I liked the products (both APT and Lectron) and thought this would be a great fit for my customers looking for better carburetion and MPG out of there huskys. Lectron has a dealer program and product in hand (and were super nice and accommodating) and APT does not so I sighed up with Lectron. Why that was construed as some plot I have no idea. If my agenda was to sell Lectron carbs (transparent) why the heck would I post a glowing review of a carb I called the best and did not want to remove from my bike (APT) weeks before reporting on the Lectron. It makes no sense and was never the case, thats why. BTW I am small potatoes and am going to impact no manufacturer in any significant way. This is all goofy.

Again, the APT is a great carb, loved it. If you want one for sure get one. I would have trouble believing you will not love it.

Kelly

 

[Corey]

Quote "I went to Cafe Husky and read Kelly's reviews on both carbs. It does seem that he was being impartial and giving fair reviews for all of the carbs that he tested. All-in-all he spoke very favorably about the Smart Carb and the Lectron. I think he just made a business decision to sell the Lectron, and is still a stand-up kind of guy".



Kelly of his own volition tested a couple carbs sent to him. He likes them both, said so and chose to go with Lectron to help his business and provide something nice for his customers. He had nothing to do with the problem at CafeHusky. Which is they don't want any manufacturer coming on their site and promoting products. The exception is if that manufacturer is a sponsor of the site, with Motosportz is. Also nobody wants to get on a forum that is one big advertisement. So I completely understand and agree.

My ONLY complaint was that I have customers on CafeHusky who have asked legitimate questions regarding the operation and features of the SmartCarb. Everyone knows that my MO has been to go around the sites and provide meaningful information to those asking questions. I have never started a thread and have stated on almost every forum I am not there to market the carburetor and if it was perceived as such please let me know and I will go away.... I was merely frustrated at moderators for not posting my answers after I spent some time typing it out. Nothing more. And it certainly isn't Kelly's fault. I'm bad for even whining about it and I sincerely apologize for throwing these forums off track.

Respectfully and Sincerely,

Corey

 

[KellyMZ]

He had nothing to do with the problem at CafeHusky. Which is they don't want any manufacturer coming on their site and promoting products. The exception is if that manufacturer is a sponsor of the site, with Motosportz is. Also nobody wants to get on a forum that is one big advertisement. So I completely understand and agree.

My ONLY complaint was that I have customers on CafeHusky who have asked legitimate questions regarding the operation and features of the SmartCarb. Everyone knows that my MO has been to go around the sites and provide meaningful information to those asking questions.

Cory, thank you.

You should read the rules of the forum at CH to understand what is up (if you care to at this point). Also you can PM people anything so if someone asked a direct question PM them the answer. You can include links and pricing and everything. Your free to do that up to the point where you spam people and they report it then you crossed the line.

so and chose to go with Lectron to help his business and provide something nice for his customers.

Tested the APT and flat LOVED it. Called to see about being a dealer and there is no dealer program and not a lot of product right now. Tested the Lectron and liked it for very similar reasons, they have a dealer program and willing to setup for our huskys. Sighed up. It was just that simple. No agenda.

Kelly of his own volition tested a couple carbs sent to him.

You don't mean I violated something there right? Confused by your wording. I think (and hope) you mean violation as I took it on myself.


- Take care and again, I wish you the best with the APT product, it is great stuff and more than happy to see people coming up with a new mouse trap for us customers to buy.

Kelly
Motosportz

 

[Corey]

Cory, thank you.

You should read the rules of the forum at CH to understand what is up (if you care to at this point). Also you can PM people anything so if someone asked a direct question PM them the answer. You can include links and pricing and everything. Your free to do that up to the point where you spam people and they report it then you crossed the line.



You don't mean I violated something there right? Confused by your wording. I think (and hope) you mean violation as I took it on myself.


- Take care and again, I wish you the best with the APT product, it is great stuff and more than happy to see people coming up with a new mouse trap for us customers to buy.

Kelly
Motosportz

Sound good. No, volition which means of your own choice to do it.

 

[singletracker]

Please don't go away. I like reading your explanations about the SC, and find them very informative.

 

[desertgasser300]

Volition sounds right:


1: an act of making a choice or decision; also: a choice or decision made


2: the power of choosing or determining : will

 

[Corey]

Please don't go away. I like reading your explanations about the SC, and find them very informative.

Some banter from the KTM site today:

Likely this is fairly easy to answer but let's just say I do tip over somehow and it takes me a few moments to right the bike and it floods (Smartcarb) is it about equal to a PWK carbie to clear in order to get going again?

Helps to know what to expect.

Thanks,

Franco

Not really an easy answer Franco. Currently the 36-40mm billet performance SmartCarbs hold 57ml of fuel in the bowl at correct settings, which is certainly enough to make for a fairly hard to start engine after a tip over/crash and takes a little time to clean out. The SmartCarb incorporates an altitude correction circuit that is tied in direct communication with the venturi bell. We've always had the option to eliminate the altitude circuit and just run standard venting and still have a very nice running carburetor. The reason for keeping it though is that the circuit really does much more than correct for changes in ambient air pressures and densities; it also allows for very precise air/fuel ratio corrections as the engine goes in and out of efficiencies, i.e pipe effect. It also permits the fuel driving pressures to work in conjunction with throttle position as it relates to the venturi (shape in the case of the SmartCarb) and it acts like a powerjet at the very top.

All of that said to say it has been a challenge to find a way to trap all the fuel into the float bowl during a tipover and keep it from running straight down the vent tubes and into the engine. Different tip over conditions can create different scenarios of course and we are finding that those with a little better setting of the fuel level have much less problem with flooding after a tip over. Conversely those running a little high on the float level have more of a problem because of a greater volume and a little longer to shut the inlet needle seat. The needle and seat are shut when tipped over and no more fuel can enter the bowl.

We are pleased with the first design of our tipover checkvalves that both allow the altitude correction circuit to remain fully operational, and will hold all to most of the fuel in the bowl during a tipover. These are designed to fit inline with the current vent line fittings and are easily interchangeable on the billet SmartCarbs. These valves will be incorporated into the vent passageways on the new cast carbs. Pretty cool though because now we have a sealed system that doesn't put the fuel out on the ground, or through your engine of course.

The greater challenge is overflow, if the &%$* floats stick open, and totally fill the engine up with fuel. This requires us to find a way to either stop fuel flow from the tank while the engine is stopped. Vacuum petcocks/valves have been around for awhile and are met with mixed feelings, but certainly doable. The other solution is to put a stand pipe in the float bowl that is float operated to let out the overflow, which is less desirable as it would let fuel run out on the ground. BTW with just the vent line checkvalves the only way fuel can overflow into the engine is up the nozzle with the throttle shut and really slows it down but still not a complete solution.

Mike Rosso (KTM North America) says that KTM would probably be accepting of a vacuum high/flow petcock, but would be best to apply any device solely to the carburetor. Which I agree and is what we are doing; GasGas will be the first to benefit. It's very hard to get a manufacturer to accommodate a supplier, however we are also in a time when a clear emissions reduction strategy has to be implemented and necessary steps will come along to better accommodate what has to be done. It would make for a more or less fully contained system and EVAP emissions would likely be on par with EFI. We did this on our scooters during EVAP testing for EPA and showed in this category to be the lowest evaporative emissions of any carburetor.

All because of the altitude correction circuit and internalizing the venting into the airbox and not leaving all the vent hoses hanging out. It's a big part of what separates the SmartCarb from every other contender out there.

 

[Corey]

Please don't go away. I like reading your explanations about the SC, and find them very informative.

Another:

Here's a response to Kelly's post from off of twostrokemotocross forum. Thought everyone over here might want to see. It's all good, no drama:

[quote author=KellyMZ link=topic=4966.msg56491#msg56491 date=1356692381]
I tried the APT and loved it on my 125 husky with 165 kit. I also tried the Lectron and loved it too. They work very much the same and the old Lectron single grind metering rods are long gone. They developed many new and better metering rods over the last 30 year development. As I have tried one on a modern bike I can tell you they (Lectron) for sure run fantastic off the bottom and right through the range as does the APT. Just real world facts from someone who has tried both. Both carbs offer improved HP, better throttle response, better MPG and while the APT might be more altitude compensating the Lectron is also inherent in it design altitude compensating. These have been used in lots of aviation applications for just that and many other reasons. The metering rod design was initially to solve many altitude issues for aviation applications.

Bill ?Red? Edmondson, inventor of the Lectron carburetor and the other metering rod carbs and associated with the Lake Injection , Positive Fuel, EI Blue Magnum and Quicksilver. Lectron has hundreds of dyno hours and development for everything from top fuel drag bikes to Harley hill climb monster to go carts. The development over there is FAR from stagnate and they have pretty much perfected the metering rod over the lsst 30 years.

If you do some searches there is some real interesting history and info out there on this metering rod technology
[/quote]

Our reply:

The distinction between the Lectron and the APT SmartCarb primarily lies in the metering rod and what is required of it. The challenge early on with Lectron's were the precision of the grinds and consistency across metering rods of the same "size". It sounds like Kevin Gilham and maybe more importantly Paul Gast have found modern manufacturing techniques that allow a higher level of precision with Lectron Metering rods. Lectron provides a large selection of multi-angle metering rods designed to cover the most broad range of tuning applications. Conversely the shape of the SmartCarb's venturi keeps the signal consistent at the metering rod in relation to the engine's demands, and as such the SmartCarb only requires very few metering rods to cover the same spectrum of applications. To date on every single 36-40mm SmartCarb sold, including those running on Kelly's 165 kitted Husky on up to Wobbly's 400 GP lite racer and every other KTM, GasGas, Husaberg, Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Banshees', snowmobiles, piped, ported, head mods, and anything in between, have been equipped with exactly the same metering rod. This is also the reason the SmartCarb doesn't need an accelerator pump on four stroke applications. This speaks really well of the SC's ability to "read" engine requirements without simply forcing the carburetor to accept more or less fuel based on a guess of engine requirements. The SC's venturi shape is also tailored for both two and four stroke applications and can be augmented in a variety of ways.

The metering rod is also responsible for high atomization of the fuel and the SC's metering rod is superior to Lectron's because of the way they are manufactured, maintaining the material's natural resonance frequency and providing low surface tension against the fuel. This is what will allow the SC to surpass EFI capabilities and may keep the future bright for our dirtbikes without the complexities of EFI or DFI. I've also explained the balancing of air and fuel driving pressures created by the SC's altitude pressurization circuit, so I won't go back into that again here, which also dramatically separates the SC from the Lectron.