Been thinking- fork swap

Update: I was not able to get out this weekend and ride, bummer, but was able to finish up a few things.

I was messing with sag and taking measurements to see where everything was falling into place. The showas come with .46 or .47 depends on where you get your info. Static sag was 28mm and rider was 44. Seems low to me so I installed .44's. 30mm/55mm. I looked at the rear and notice the guy who did my shock revalve was not even close to having the spring in the position I had it in. 4 turns later and sag was 32/108. I have not measured preload yet. Ordered a 5.4 spring Friday so I didn't care. I doubt I could get 10mm preload or less and have the right numbers anyway.

Weight: 125 lbs front end. 136 lbs rear end. 261 lbs.

The Honda CRF450R was 116/124. 243.

To be a little fair the honda had about 1/2 gallon in it and the pig/gg had 1.5-2. About 10 lbs.

This really makes me wonder how undersprung the gg is stock. I do know with the E start, pipe/skid guard, larger tank, rad braces, and hand guards weight bumps up, regardless, the GG comes with .42's and my stock rider sag was 88mm. I double checked the zoke forks I did go to .46's. So, this brings me to wonder about how much preload the zoke has vs the showa. There was not a lot of difference in sag from .46 to .44. The honda with .46 was 53mm rider sag. Seems like 25-30/50-60 are the numbers people look for in fork sag. Does that sound correct?
 
Fork sag is not a good consistant indicator due to the stiction. Forks even feel different on the trail once they are warmed up. In the rear, stiction is easily overcome by the leverage ratio of the linkage.
 
I do agree but sag can not be ignored. The bike still has to be held up in the stroke. The big issue is the fact the springs are designed to hold the bike up loaded and unloaded a certain amount. That amount is generally the same for all bikes. The interesting thing is that the Honda came with .46's and is lighter than the GG. Sure, one is off road and the other mx oriented. However, RT and MX tech etc still show heavier springs for my weight and ability on the Honda. I find it interesting more than anything.
 
I bought an 01 250 XC and found that the WPs had been cut down or lowered in some way internally by 3". So I swapped on the forks from my CRF 250 X. with the Honda front wheel. As mentioned here, the bottom clamp was a bit too snug, and the top a bit too big. I made a shim for the top from sheet metal, and simply snugged the bottom clamp rather than torqueing it properly. It all worked fine until I jumped it, and the forks crept up. When re-tightening everything, I found that setting the torque so that the forks would stay put, I created fork bind.

After making thicker shims for the top and using red Loctite on the bottom clamp, covering the inside of the clamp with it, I got the forks to stay put, and got in a good ride.

I noticed the different axel offset, but having nothing to compare to, with the original forks being so short, I found no problems in handling. The bike seemed relatively neutral in turning, not too sharp turning or overly unstable at speed. My only real ability to mention bikes for comparison is the bike felt similar to my old 01 KX 250, which again I felt was "neutral" handling.

Compared to a KTM 250 EXC, 04 model, the GG with the Showa front end turned a bit more slowly, but was more stable. The front tire would "push" a bit on hardpack, but predictably so. At speed, the GG with this setup is much more stable than the 04 KTM.

I lack the technical expertise to even begin to match the detail of this thread, but I thought I'd mention my experience. Basically, it worked well.

Problem is, the WPs ain't gonna fit the CRF without some major mods, so eventually I'll have to swap back the Showas to it.

I have an extra set of DRZ 400 E forks, much smaller diameter, but they sure worked well on the DRZ, any ideas on how to make shims to put those on the GG?
 
You may be able to correct the height of the WP's if they they just added a spacer to reduce the travel. You will likely need new springs. However, if they just installed a 3 inch spacer and cut down the spring your fix is pretty simple.

I had an awesome test on Saturday. I have a couple of solid rides in now and the last one was in the woods, not the desert. Although the last ride in the desert produced decent results I determine the shock was not working well and needs another revalve.

Saturday- I removed 1 20.15 shim from the midvalve, set the oil height at 350cc, and went to 10 clicks from hard on compression, 10 on rebound.44/46 spring combo. Shock was 20 clicks from hard.

One of my fast buddies showed up so it was going to be good test. He is a solid A rider and has very good cornering skills. He is on 2012 Husaberg 300.

Overall it was an awesome test day. The bike was working very well and absorbing the hack and g outs. Cornering seemed unaffected, and I was pulling typical GG lines and staying easily ahead of the berg. My first few tests the front was all over the place and pushing out. Not this time, it was settling in and staying on track. The rear of the bike is not right but it was good enough to keep me in a straight line most of the time. It is just too harsh right now. Need to soften it up and change the valving around. I made a couple of adjustments to the forks. 3 clicks faster compression and 3 clicks slower rebound. Left it alone.
One thing I really like about about the showa's is the fact I can feel them doing their job. Settling in to corners, absorbing the big hits, everything feels pretty good. I did get a chance to run some rocky trails and the forks ate up the squares and rollies.

There is one thing I think I really need to do. Lower the forks .25" or 6mm to match the zokes. Currently I have to run the showa's very high in the clamps and I do not tighten the bottom clamp bottom bolt. The only issue with this is just being able to adjust the compression clickers and setting the fork height easily. Anyway, there seems to be a couple of ways of doing this. 1. Reduce the preload, install a 6mm spacer on the rebound shaft. 2. Cut the spring, install a spacer.

I ordered a preload reducer ring from factory connection and will measure it to see how much preload it will eliminate. Current preload on the showa is 6mm. I have a feeling the spacer is 3mm. So if I install it and a spacer I will have increased preload to 9mm from 6mm. The reducer will be here this week so I will know then.

Overall, I have learned a lot and am super happy about the direction and success. I still want to pursue using the gas gas wheel however. I like the the larger rotor and the fact the wheels match up with the rest of the bike.
 
Rebuilt the shock last night. I was not sure until we got in there what he did but it was a 3 stage stack. I wanted a little softer on initial and more bottom resistance.

He stiffened the HS, added a stage for the mid stroke, and left the bottom alone. I looked at him and said why? LOL.

Anyway, went back to stock HS, took out the 2nd stage, and added 2 big shims to the LS. It is not really softer on the initial but at least I have a place to start. I am looking forward to a test ride and hope the shock and forks are better balanced now.
 
Just curious what your rider weight is fully geared.

I just set up TTX inserts in the Sachs tubes so will be looking at doing the sag settings and preload also. Currently have the bike torn right down (no tank, seat, pipe or top end) and got 20mm free sag, 40mm race sag (again nude bike and nude rider) with a set of .46 springs. I expect all those numbers to increase some when adding the extra kgs back on.
 
Jakobi said:
Just curious what your rider weight is fully geared.

I just set up TTX inserts in the Sachs tubes so will be looking at doing the sag settings and preload also. Currently have the bike torn right down (no tank, seat, pipe or top end) and got 20mm free sag, 40mm race sag (again nude bike and nude rider) with a set of .46 springs. I expect all those numbers to increase some when adding the extra kgs back on.
Click to expand...
Nude rider!!? Well i suppose that is one way of keeping your clothes clean while you work on the bike :-)
 
210 lbs.

5.4 in the rear. I will reset sag tonight when I put it back together to get around 108 mm rider sag. Should be around 30-33mm static.

44/46 in the showa's with 6mm preload. Need more testing but so far I like the way the bike is working.

I ran 46's in the zokes. 44/46 combo was OK and good for trails. 46's better for faster and bigger hits. I was happy with 46's in the zokes.
 
Free and easy around this neck of the woods Matt :p

Same same here Brent. I'm close to 210lbs (95kgs) once fully geared up including the tool roll. Also went with the 5.4 rear to match with the .46 forks. Wouldn't know a think about opening up a shock. Was always happy with the Ohlins 888 rear but was happy with the harsh as stock valved Sachs. Simmo's betting the forks will work so well that they begin to highlight the shocks weaknesses. Good thread! I'll keep following in the shadows now.
 
That is where I was. The shock was awesome compared the stuff up front. Then stuff up was so good the shock was not. I am not sure the shock needs a lot of tweaking though. I guess it just depends on what you do with the bike. I am trying to set it up for a wide variety. I can leave the truck in a sand wash that is 5 miles long with some big g outs and speeds in the 80's to a single track goat trail 10 miles later where the GG trials background comes into play.

My point, if the jap bikes and KTM's can do it, so can this bike. : )

Hoping to test tonight afterwork. Bike all buttoned up and ready to rock. It is raining though. Crap.
 
Welp, the test last night was....AWESOME. Finally mounted my helmet cam and followed my buddy around in perfect dirt conditions. Very little mud, very little dust, PERFECT!!!!!!

The shock worked well. Slowed the R down a little from 25c to 20c out, C is at 15c. The back end tracked well, absorbed big hits, never bottomed, and seemed to take the squares and hack well. I could loft the front and ride the rear through stuff with confidence I have not really had before. NICE.

The front was very very good. I used all but the last .75inch or 18mm. I need to play a little with Rebound still but overall the forks are very good. Squares and hack seem to melt and the big hits are absorbed well. I may also be a little but soft in the mid stroke though. I am having a tough time figuring out if the fork is blowing through mid or not. It is not harsh at all so I feel I am very very close.

Right now the whole thing seems pretty balanced and working well. I will leave it alone for another ride and think everything through. We had a variety of terrain from slow to fast single and double track. The GPS said I hit 58mph somewhere and the whole area is pretty well covered in whoops. Things must has been decent as I did not recall thinking "man I better slow before I die."
 
Brent,

Mount the GoPro on the frame with a view of the fork, that should tell you what you want to know.
 
I didn't get around to mounting the GP to look at fork action. Instead I spent part of saturday reshaping the horrilbly built Clark 3.2. It took me a while but I was able to get the thing reshaped with hot water and air pressure to fit my new shrouds without destroying their shape this time. It is first time since I have owned the tank and bike I was almost happy. I have few more ideas for improvement and I thin I will be done. YAY.

OK, so I rode the bike again Sunday and it is Good. I could ride it as is I think but with the axle offset and taller forks it does not corner quite as well as it should or what I remember. The 05 Honda I rode back to back was a cornering dream. So I went to the store and got a piece of PVC pipe and a cutting board. The CB is made of poly and about the right thickness to use as shim in the fork to reduce it's height. I also found another way to reduce preload, just cut in a new cir-clip groove and move the spacer up. Ta Da. LOL.

For now I will cut a spacer and install the new preload reducing rings I got from Factory Connection. It will increase the preload by about 3mm but I think that will be OK. It is a cheap and easy test. Eitherway, the bike is much better than stock overall well worth the time and effort.
 
Thanks Brent for posting this as a realtime build thread. I used it often as inspiration for my WP swap. I started about the same time as you and just got it on the dirt about 2 weeks ago. I agree it is a bit of trouble, takes time and money, but in the end I could not be happier.
Happy Trails
 
I'm torn

Most of me wants you to get this all sorted, the entertainment tonight side of me is enjoying the regular updates and wants it to continue.....bah.

It's sounds like your close, it's like season 7b of the sopranos just arrived on BitTorrent!

Keep up the great posts!
 
LOL. I could make this is an on going test suicide. I could mate up some KYB's or Showa's from other bikes. Oh better yet, I could try and go back to the zokes. : )

Actually, my next project will likely be to mate the front GG wheel etc up to the Showa's. The brakes on the GG are 260mm and the Honda is 240. I need to design spacers or bore the axle clamps. I will also need to design a brake bracket.

OH and BTW- yesterday I ordered a Honda front brake master cylinder. Although the GG brake set up seems OK, when running back to back on the Honda 450 and using the brake system off of it on my GG, I am convinced I need more braking power. I have to work hard at doing stopies on the GG. I am using new pads on galfer rotor with the stock GG braking system. I have bled it several times and it works fine, I think. It's just that when I get on the Honda and put the hammer down I find I can hold my speed deeper into corners etc. I am not sure but I think I am faster with this improved suspension......well or I am just out of control and my brain is miss firing on the trigger point to slow the hell down. I will go with "faster" because it sounds cool.

Vid. OK. I have a 16 gig card full up on the GP and also loaded to my laptop. My problem is that I have not yet looked at editing the vid to show the good stuff, ya know, like me flailing around and falling down. That is good stuff. I will try and look at the software that is on my confuser tonight and see if I can make sense of it all. I should probably purchase a editing thingy huh? Suggestions?
 
Nice vid. you hall! If my 11/300 ran that clean i would have kept it. but no spudder, blubber,gurgle! Low speed rebound could be fast?
 
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