Motosportz
New member
BTW I am gone thursday - Monday to the Idaho City ISDE Qualifier so can't respond after today until I return but would love to help people trying to find the perfect settings for these bikes.
The Lectron - Review (vs SmartCarb)
- Thread starter Jakobi
- Start date
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Hey Kelly,
I just rebuilt this engine from the bottom up. When I first installed the Lectorn it had 100hrs on it. All details re squish, engine state, previous tune, compression ratio are listed in the first post. During the rebuild I installed an additional 0.1mm of gasket to slightly change the port timing and drop the compression a bit, so current squish is 1.35mm with jut below 14:1UCCR (can't remember where the maths got me).
I spoke with Dave at TSP who is sending me a couple more needles to try out. I'll try the one thats a step leaner on the bottom third and work from there. In the meantime I do have a billet SC in the post so when that arrives it will be going in for comparison. The Lectron will be returned to Dave at some point where he'll use it in his newly aquired second hand TE250.
I just rebuilt this engine from the bottom up. When I first installed the Lectorn it had 100hrs on it. All details re squish, engine state, previous tune, compression ratio are listed in the first post. During the rebuild I installed an additional 0.1mm of gasket to slightly change the port timing and drop the compression a bit, so current squish is 1.35mm with jut below 14:1UCCR (can't remember where the maths got me).
I spoke with Dave at TSP who is sending me a couple more needles to try out. I'll try the one thats a step leaner on the bottom third and work from there. In the meantime I do have a billet SC in the post so when that arrives it will be going in for comparison. The Lectron will be returned to Dave at some point where he'll use it in his newly aquired second hand TE250.
Motosportz
New member
sounds good. Will be interesting to see your results.
What if anything did you find lacking in the performance of the Lectron? Bottom, mid top? I have extensive use of these know and fully understand how to tune them. Also many of us are finding the shorter PJ tube makes them run crisper low and mid without losing top end and adjustability. It is my feeling the long tube is to much for most single cylinder 250cc and under bikes. If you let me know how many PJ turns out you are running please. If more than 2 and feels like it is richening up the mid range to much in doing so try removing the tube and cutting in down about .200-.300 inches. This translates to it affecting the range later and later in the throttle position. The 250-300cc bike seem much less affected by this.
K
Jakobi
Super Moderator
I won't be cutting anything down as its not my carb to be modifying, however I will pass the info on. In regards to the power jet, no issues with top end performance. I'm only at 1 turn out and it puffs a little smoke in the top end. Best performance has been noted at 3/4.
You ask what I find lacking in the lectron, and the easiest way to summarise this is to say balance. As always when tuning its a compromise, but what I am faced with is a compromise between a rich bottom end, or a leanish mid range. One adjustment in either direction is all it takes. Between 50.25mm and 50.50mm, using the 3-1 rod.
Originally I thought I could crispen up the midrange more but after putting more hours on it its evident that the best midrange torque comes at the richer setting. I can't handle excessive or fluffy bottom end though. I ride alot of tight single and prefer to have a bike that responds immediately when rolling it on. Burbles are bad! I honestly and truly think my ideal setting is between these 2.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Today I picked up the Smart Carb. I'll charge the camera and snap off some shots. It was packaged very well, however has shipped without any documentation so I'll be reading up on the pumpkin site as to what best method is. I'm pretty sure they advise to resist the temptation to lift the slide by hand, which I have. And also to fill the carb before install and to check the float heights. I need to double check this figure. Build quality looks very nice though!
Jakobi
Super Moderator
I have just had the whole thing apart. Floats seemed pretty close. I removed the 4 x bottom allen heads and the gasket. Checked the floats visually, then held the bowl on while filling the carb from the tank. After 20-30secs I figured it was full, took it back to the work bench and then removed the body. There was around 18mm from the top of the bowl to the fuel line. I tweaked this slightly and repeated until the level was a mm lower. I now have 19-20mm until fuel level which is about half the bowl.
I then started measuring up the slide. I have no idea what the difference between the rod in the lectron and the rod in the apt are. I haven't measured or miked them, but I had previously had the lectron set at 50.25mm from the bottom of the slide to the end of the rod. With the extra fine tuning of the APT I have dialled it in to be 50.15mm as my starting point.
I'm going to go and drop my airboot in some warm water for a bit and then install the lot back in place. Its been rubbing my shock spring and always appeared like it could have been a better fit so I'm doing that now too.
Also have to change the throttle cable back over to the motion pro T3, as I much prefer its captive ends from a functional and safety point of view.
I then started measuring up the slide. I have no idea what the difference between the rod in the lectron and the rod in the apt are. I haven't measured or miked them, but I had previously had the lectron set at 50.25mm from the bottom of the slide to the end of the rod. With the extra fine tuning of the APT I have dialled it in to be 50.15mm as my starting point.
I'm going to go and drop my airboot in some warm water for a bit and then install the lot back in place. Its been rubbing my shock spring and always appeared like it could have been a better fit so I'm doing that now too.
Also have to change the throttle cable back over to the motion pro T3, as I much prefer its captive ends from a functional and safety point of view.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
So I got everything together after an afternoon of mucking around.
Immediately I was impressed with the fit and finish of everything. Very nice and professional. The finish actually looks a level above the Lectron.
I switched back to the Motion Pro T3. The cable length was just right but it did take a bit of tinkering to get the slack just right. Doing up the 10mm lock nut is hard as the mounting point on the carb cap is reccessed.
Installation into the bike was horrible. The billet is much larger than the lectron and required me to flip the subframe, I had to remove the top chain roller/guide, and also had to drop the carb boot in warm water to get it soft enough to slide over and seal on the carb. After a few attempts everything went together well.
My initial needle length was way off. The bike started easily but the idle raced excessively. I let it race for probably longer than I should have while trying to work out how to adjust the needle. Perks of not having any documentation. Killed the engine and ended up going quite a few clicks richer to the point where the bike would idle and then settle back into a nice idle after some throttle. I only got to ride around the yard a little bit, and I would at a guess, say the bike will probably be a bit lean when put under a decent load when actually riding. Performance wise it feels much like the Lectron from first tests. I fear I'm going to get into the same scenario where I can't clean up the bottom or vice versa. Time will tell that one. Hopefully I'll get out tomorrow or Wednesday for a decent run.
I'm also not really keen with how close the carb sits to the chain. It shouldn't be an issue. The fuel line is also hard to run up past the tubing and kind of sticks out a bit more than I'd like. I might need to get a 90 degree fuel filter instead of the straight inline one I have now.
Immediately I was impressed with the fit and finish of everything. Very nice and professional. The finish actually looks a level above the Lectron.
I switched back to the Motion Pro T3. The cable length was just right but it did take a bit of tinkering to get the slack just right. Doing up the 10mm lock nut is hard as the mounting point on the carb cap is reccessed.
Installation into the bike was horrible. The billet is much larger than the lectron and required me to flip the subframe, I had to remove the top chain roller/guide, and also had to drop the carb boot in warm water to get it soft enough to slide over and seal on the carb. After a few attempts everything went together well.
My initial needle length was way off. The bike started easily but the idle raced excessively. I let it race for probably longer than I should have while trying to work out how to adjust the needle. Perks of not having any documentation. Killed the engine and ended up going quite a few clicks richer to the point where the bike would idle and then settle back into a nice idle after some throttle. I only got to ride around the yard a little bit, and I would at a guess, say the bike will probably be a bit lean when put under a decent load when actually riding. Performance wise it feels much like the Lectron from first tests. I fear I'm going to get into the same scenario where I can't clean up the bottom or vice versa. Time will tell that one. Hopefully I'll get out tomorrow or Wednesday for a decent run.
I'm also not really keen with how close the carb sits to the chain. It shouldn't be an issue. The fuel line is also hard to run up past the tubing and kind of sticks out a bit more than I'd like. I might need to get a 90 degree fuel filter instead of the straight inline one I have now.
nambo-trev
New member
Looking forward to hearing your feedback bro
GMP
Active member
Your overthinking this. I don't think you can relate the Lectron rod to the APT rod as far as length, they are completely different animals. The APTs have come set within a few clicks for 250s from all previous accounts.
Girard got all this started here when he bought a billet awhile ago now for his '11 Six days 250. Just a couple clicks and he was good to go. Fast A guy in high temps/humidity, US fuel.
Girard got all this started here when he bought a billet awhile ago now for his '11 Six days 250. Just a couple clicks and he was good to go. Fast A guy in high temps/humidity, US fuel.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
You can't directly measure the distance from the base of the slide to the end of the rod the same. These vary between the carbs due to the different ways they mount and insert into the slide. The slide cutaway is very very similar across both slides. The slides also appear the same width with the APT being much shorter.
From a machining and finishing point of view, the Lectron rods look much more professional. The APT looks a bit like someones thrown it on a grinder in comparison.
It didn't take long at all to bring the rod into the right length and you can definitely notice the change when making adjustments.
You know I always over think everything. Better than not thinking at all. It also seems conditions and fuels are a bit different between here and there. I'm looking forward to getting out for a ride and seeing how it runs across the fuel rev range.
Thats the bowl set level with the swing arm? Are you saying we need to run it at a 45 degree angle forwards, as well as to the left.. ?
Motosportz
New member
full disclosure because people here seem to get pissy as I SELL LECTRON CARBS, I am not trying to sell you anything, get it direct or whatever, Get over it I am just here to provide info.
so with that clear and out of the way....
A few things on this one. Lectron responded to this and made a new rod with a less aggressive low ramp to the rod. This means 1/4 turn is much less movement than before. This allows you to tune about 3 steps per the old 1/4 turn. I have used it and it works as described and is much more fine tune. The huskys don't seems to need this but there it is. Lectron was more than willing to jump right in and adjust things to our needs.
Second I have come up with my own custom rod specs through my testing. This is based on the above rod, then about half throttle gets richer quicker. This is for people that end up 2+ turns out on the powerjet setting. Basically uses less PJ and mor rod. I also spec a shorter PJ tube which makes the PJ happen later. I have about 5 rides on this setup on my personal Husky 125 with 165 kit and it is fantastic. IMHO. Starts first kick every time hot ot cold, idles perfect, snappy response, great power no flat spots or richness anywhere. PERFECT to me.
I just raced the Idaho City ISDE qualifier this weekend with this setup, my MS-3 rod and short PJ tube and could not have been more happy. 1 kick EVERY time, great long pulling power and smiles all day long. This is a serious race for guys trying to qualify for the 6 days and 120 miles per day of 4500 feet elevation changes all day long. About 1/3 DNF. My 165 / Lectron impressed the hell outta me all day long. I got a 2nd place and felt really good about it.
I hear a lot of talk about how the Lectron is not as altitude compensating. BS. I typically ride in the coast range mountains (Trask area) of Oregon. My MS-3 rod and short PJ tube all tuned for 50-2500 feet worked fantastic at 4000-8400 feet of this Idaho race. I mean perfect. Buddies where complaining about how rich there bikes were running at 8400', mine was running just like it does at 100 feet. Snappy, clean, crisp, great power. Good buddy on my same minute was running a Lectron and a Husky 125 and also reported perfect running all day long. So My carb has seen 50 feet and 30 degrees to 8400 feet and 75 degrees, runs perfect. Only adjustment I made at all was turned the idle up 1/4 turn for the 4000-8400. Done. Love this carb.
After the race I pulled my plug and
looks like a bike running lean. Cleaner than i have ever seen a 2 stroke plug and looks like a bike running too lean. But it is not, no flat spots, no overheating no running on, just makes great power everywhere and runs crisp.
could not have been more happy with the performance of my Lectron.
so with that clear and out of the way....
A few things on this one. Lectron responded to this and made a new rod with a less aggressive low ramp to the rod. This means 1/4 turn is much less movement than before. This allows you to tune about 3 steps per the old 1/4 turn. I have used it and it works as described and is much more fine tune. The huskys don't seems to need this but there it is. Lectron was more than willing to jump right in and adjust things to our needs.
Second I have come up with my own custom rod specs through my testing. This is based on the above rod, then about half throttle gets richer quicker. This is for people that end up 2+ turns out on the powerjet setting. Basically uses less PJ and mor rod. I also spec a shorter PJ tube which makes the PJ happen later. I have about 5 rides on this setup on my personal Husky 125 with 165 kit and it is fantastic. IMHO. Starts first kick every time hot ot cold, idles perfect, snappy response, great power no flat spots or richness anywhere. PERFECT to me.
I just raced the Idaho City ISDE qualifier this weekend with this setup, my MS-3 rod and short PJ tube and could not have been more happy. 1 kick EVERY time, great long pulling power and smiles all day long. This is a serious race for guys trying to qualify for the 6 days and 120 miles per day of 4500 feet elevation changes all day long. About 1/3 DNF. My 165 / Lectron impressed the hell outta me all day long. I got a 2nd place and felt really good about it.
I hear a lot of talk about how the Lectron is not as altitude compensating. BS. I typically ride in the coast range mountains (Trask area) of Oregon. My MS-3 rod and short PJ tube all tuned for 50-2500 feet worked fantastic at 4000-8400 feet of this Idaho race. I mean perfect. Buddies where complaining about how rich there bikes were running at 8400', mine was running just like it does at 100 feet. Snappy, clean, crisp, great power. Good buddy on my same minute was running a Lectron and a Husky 125 and also reported perfect running all day long. So My carb has seen 50 feet and 30 degrees to 8400 feet and 75 degrees, runs perfect. Only adjustment I made at all was turned the idle up 1/4 turn for the 4000-8400. Done. Love this carb.
After the race I pulled my plug and
looks like a bike running lean. Cleaner than i have ever seen a 2 stroke plug and looks like a bike running too lean. But it is not, no flat spots, no overheating no running on, just makes great power everywhere and runs crisp. could not have been more happy with the performance of my Lectron.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
Shh Kelly.. its APT time now.. Hahah!
Seriously though, Lectron (Kevin) has been great to deal with and more than accomodating.. Very very approachable and as indicated by Kelly, more than willing to work towards implementing solutions. Their business model is no bs, and their price point is attractive. They have carbs in stock and you can have one on your bike right away. They don't have the external adjusters, and in theory don't compensate like the APT claims. For me personally, I haven't noticed any issues across a ride. Engine load or jetting for conditions was still a compromise, but I haven't had a chance to check the APT in regards to this.
I'll have some time on the APT next ride and then things will become clearer as to if its really a 'better product'. Its too soon to comment yet.
The Lectron is a much better fit than the billet SC. Very bulky and hard to get to. The external adjustment is a bit hard to engage at times, and can also be hard to feel the actual clicks.
Seriously though, Lectron (Kevin) has been great to deal with and more than accomodating.. Very very approachable and as indicated by Kelly, more than willing to work towards implementing solutions. Their business model is no bs, and their price point is attractive. They have carbs in stock and you can have one on your bike right away. They don't have the external adjusters, and in theory don't compensate like the APT claims. For me personally, I haven't noticed any issues across a ride. Engine load or jetting for conditions was still a compromise, but I haven't had a chance to check the APT in regards to this.
I'll have some time on the APT next ride and then things will become clearer as to if its really a 'better product'. Its too soon to comment yet.
The Lectron is a much better fit than the billet SC. Very bulky and hard to get to. The external adjustment is a bit hard to engage at times, and can also be hard to feel the actual clicks.
Motosportz
New member
total BS, runs perfect from 50-8400 feet for me. Not a hint of issues and nice simple overflow hoses.
would be really interesting to see what my MS-3 rod and shorter PJ tube will do for the GG's. Local buddy Tim just tried the MS-3 rod on his KTM 200 and reports very good results as well. I designed this fir the unique needs of the small bores but think it might work well on other bikes too. I'm serious when I say my carb has been absolutely spot on perfect since installing this. Was great before, now perfect. I can't leave stuff alone but I am stumped how to make it better at this point. Starts stupid EZ and gets awesome milage as well.
Motosportz
New member
Jakobi
Super Moderator
haha says vs APT!
Great info. I should have got you to stick one of your MS needles in with that damper part you were going to send over. I'm certain I'll have the Lectron back in at some point. The plan will be to send the SC down to TSP and have Dave run it on the Dyno for a bit. Probably on his newly aquired TE250.
I also personally won't have much data on the altitude adjustment. I ride between 0 - 1000M and thats as much as it gets. Humidity and temp can vary between 15-35C and 0-100% in the same day though. This and a dirty air filter both caused noticable changes in the Keihin, but nothing that couldn't be tuned out with the pilot.
Great info. I should have got you to stick one of your MS needles in with that damper part you were going to send over. I'm certain I'll have the Lectron back in at some point. The plan will be to send the SC down to TSP and have Dave run it on the Dyno for a bit. Probably on his newly aquired TE250.
I also personally won't have much data on the altitude adjustment. I ride between 0 - 1000M and thats as much as it gets. Humidity and temp can vary between 15-35C and 0-100% in the same day though. This and a dirty air filter both caused noticable changes in the Keihin, but nothing that couldn't be tuned out with the pilot.
Jakobi
Super Moderator
I got the bike running pretty well yesterday, but then today I found it really hard to start. The hardest its ever been (excess of 10 kicks). Usually its a 1 kick fire, if not second. Always has been with the PWK and the Lectron. I'm not sure why, as when I first installed it, it was well on the lean side and still fired 2nd kick on the choke, which raced away at idle and continued to race once off. I brought it around 10 clicks richer from here to get the idle to settle in and give good response off the bottom.
Once I rode it for a bit today and noticed a hanging idle present so went a couple clicks richer. I've hit my first real issue and its one I was honestly expecting to have to get through too. I have a lean bog off idle, yet a rich condition at idle. Getting the 1/8th -1/4 throttle rich enough to not bog leaves me with excessive blubbering up to that point. In PWK terms its like the needle diameter is too lean. From 1/4 throttle on it runs well, but feels a bit rich too. I can't lean the mid out without the below 1/4 throttle losing all its torque. Its kind of the same thing that happened with the Lectrons metering rod too, but the compromise didn't seem as bad. Ie the Lectron didn't seem to hang its idle as easily, or drop its torque so much, or even burble as much off idle.
I think the Lectron rod I've been using more like a small pilot, with a thick needle, and leaning the needle clip enough to clean the bottom end would leave the midrange lean..
Where the APT one feels like a large pilot, lean diameter, and a richer needle(or clip position). Richening the needle clip position to fill in the lower throttle only makes the mid richer.
I also found I really have to rotate the carb around a bit to clear the chain. Will this cause any flooding issues? I've always ran my carbs with the float seam parallel to the ground, which I had but there is already minor signs of the chain making contact and thats just in my play loop.
So initial results aren't what I expected.. but I have emailed APT and also let them know I'll be posting here. Maybe Corey will chime in with some ideas. I'm not shunning either product, but I think that the Australian conditions/requirements are clearly a bit different to those in the states. I always found that when comparing my 250F settings to those on thumpertalk too.
Once I rode it for a bit today and noticed a hanging idle present so went a couple clicks richer. I've hit my first real issue and its one I was honestly expecting to have to get through too. I have a lean bog off idle, yet a rich condition at idle. Getting the 1/8th -1/4 throttle rich enough to not bog leaves me with excessive blubbering up to that point. In PWK terms its like the needle diameter is too lean. From 1/4 throttle on it runs well, but feels a bit rich too. I can't lean the mid out without the below 1/4 throttle losing all its torque. Its kind of the same thing that happened with the Lectrons metering rod too, but the compromise didn't seem as bad. Ie the Lectron didn't seem to hang its idle as easily, or drop its torque so much, or even burble as much off idle.
I think the Lectron rod I've been using more like a small pilot, with a thick needle, and leaning the needle clip enough to clean the bottom end would leave the midrange lean..
Where the APT one feels like a large pilot, lean diameter, and a richer needle(or clip position). Richening the needle clip position to fill in the lower throttle only makes the mid richer.
I also found I really have to rotate the carb around a bit to clear the chain. Will this cause any flooding issues? I've always ran my carbs with the float seam parallel to the ground, which I had but there is already minor signs of the chain making contact and thats just in my play loop.
So initial results aren't what I expected.. but I have emailed APT and also let them know I'll be posting here. Maybe Corey will chime in with some ideas. I'm not shunning either product, but I think that the Australian conditions/requirements are clearly a bit different to those in the states. I always found that when comparing my 250F settings to those on thumpertalk too.
