The Lectron - Review (vs SmartCarb)

[Motosportz]

I got the bike running pretty well yesterday, but then today I found it really hard to start. The hardest its ever been (excess of 10 kicks). Usually its a 1 kick fire, if not second. Always has been with the PWK and the Lectron. I'm not sure why, as when I first installed it, it was well on the lean side and still fired 2nd kick on the choke, which raced away at idle and continued to race once off. I brought it around 10 clicks richer from here to get the idle to settle in and give good response off the bottom.

Once I rode it for a bit today and noticed a hanging idle present so went a couple clicks richer. I've hit my first real issue and its one I was honestly expecting to have to get through too. I have a lean bog off idle, yet a rich condition at idle. Getting the 1/8th -1/4 throttle rich enough to not bog leaves me with excessive blubbering up to that point. In PWK terms its like the needle diameter is too lean. From 1/4 throttle on it runs well, but feels a bit rich too. I can't lean the mid out without the below 1/4 throttle losing all its torque. Its kind of the same thing that happened with the Lectrons metering rod too, but the compromise didn't seem as bad. Ie the Lectron didn't seem to hang its idle as easily, or drop its torque so much, or even burble as much off idle.

I think the Lectron rod I've been using more like a small pilot, with a thick needle, and leaning the needle clip enough to clean the bottom end would leave the midrange lean..

Where the APT one feels like a large pilot, lean diameter, and a richer needle(or clip position). Richening the needle clip position to fill in the lower throttle only makes the mid richer.

I also found I really have to rotate the carb around a bit to clear the chain. Will this cause any flooding issues? I've always ran my carbs with the float seam parallel to the ground, which I had but there is already minor signs of the chain making contact and thats just in my play loop.

So initial results aren't what I expected.. but I have emailed APT and also let them know I'll be posting here. Maybe Corey will chime in with some ideas. I'm not shunning either product, but I think that the Australian conditions/requirements are clearly a bit different to those in the states. I always found that when comparing my 250F settings to those on thumpertalk too.

Will be interesting to see where you get with it. Yes your guys fuel and air seems a good bit different than ours int he States and requires different setups. I have even seen this on the JD EFI tuners I sell. The Stock settings are way too rich for some reason but work perfect here.

(Warning, going to talk about Lectrons carbs now, turn off your computer :>) the idea of one rod covering everything and no adjustable powerjet like the Lectron has makes me uncomfortable. The APT I had did run very good on both a 125 and 165 husky but I was 30 turns of the adjuster different than John who I got the carb to try from. there was a slight bit of leanness in the mid that I could not get out. Still ran far better than a jetted carb but was scratching my head how to solve that last 10% I wanted to fix.

With a Lecton and 40 years of experience and rod design that have piles of solutions for this stuff. It would be EZ for you to choose a lean low and, medium mid and then dial the top to your liking via the powerjet. I like this setup and it allowed me to take the Lectron that I loved as is but was 90% perfect and tweak the last 10% out of it with a rod and shorter PJ pickup tube. Lots of options with that carb. Since doing so I don't even look down at the carb it runs so freaking perfect. I have never been to a point where i did not want to tweak something on a carb always chasing that last 10%, I am there now. The idea of a one rod, no powerjet works on every bike carb sounds wonderful. Time will tell if it is a reality. I think as they have more feedback they will also have many rods to offer and maybe an adjustable powerjet too at which point will simply be a Lectron copy. Might be wrong but I have 6 months of intensive experience with this carb now and think thats going to be the case. I have sold over 75 of these Lectrons and have piles of feedback. I also have several fast buddies local running them who i feed parts to in the name of research. Buddy Jake just smoked his class at the ISDE this last weekend on a basically stock husky 125 with a Lectron on it.

Look forward to your feedback and solution to this.

I think the Lectron rod I've been using more like a small pilot, with a thick needle, and leaning the needle clip enough to clean the bottom end would leave the midrange lean..

Simple to fix. First off if it was lean bottom and mid simply turn the rod in a few turns and it should make the bottom and mid richer, then dial the PJ for top. Did you do this? What did it not fix? If that does not get the results you want run a 4-1 or 4-2 rod (richer bottom and mid) instead of a 3-1 rod (or my custom rod which time will tell but might just become the defacto rod for single cylinder 2 stroke dirt bikes) and set the bottom and mid. Then dial the PJ for your top end needs. If the PJ runs over the mid to much and makes it to rich get the shorter PJ tube which makes it come on later in the throttle. Then you will have perfect bottom, mid and top, great starting and smooth idle.

 

[andoman]

Thats the bowl set level with the swing arm? Are you saying we need to run it at a 45 degree angle forwards, as well as to the left.. ?

The chain is just too close the bowl with the carb horizontal.
I have had no float height issues by rotating the carb. In fact, I recall that Corey said that the carb worked fine with wide variations in float height. I think the need to make sure the fuel level wasn't too high came from the days before the check valves.

As for your hard starting: I had the exact same issue. When I got it adjusted correctly, it seemed too lean to start even with the choke on. It ran fine and idled fine, but I had to kick it a dozen times for it to fire off first ride of the day. It was an easy one kick after it warmed up.

I replaced the BR8-ES with a B8EIX fine wire iridium plug and its now an easy one kick to start when cold. I also found that it likes just a hint of throttle when stone cold. I hold the throttle open steady just a teeny tiny bit.

 

[Jakobi]

Good info above.

Ando, I'm running a brand new, correctly gapped, NGK BR8EG. Typically I'd just run the ES but went all out with the rebuild. Glad to know someone else is experiencing a similar thing though.. Not so good for the carb.

Kelly.. you love stirring the pot

In regards to what I had tried with the Lectron everything was with the 3-1 rod. I have a 3-2 here but decided it would be working in the wrong direction, and was waiting on a 3-0 and 4-0 but was an issue with shipping so haven't had the chance to play.

The real issue here is that everyone groups the bottom and mid into the same basket. IMO they have always been at minimum 2 circuits (but on a PWK more like slide, needle diameter, pilot, air screw, and needle taper). Thinking in terms of an indexed throttle we have closed, 1/8th, 1/4, 1/2 throttle. I'd consider closed to be the idle, 1/8th to 1/4 bottom end, 1/4 to 1/2 mid.. and basically everything above to be mid to top.

With the 3-1 metering rod, at my current setting of 50.25mm I have a very nice idle, some slight burble up to 1/8th which I consider essential, clean strong torquey power delivery up to and maybe just past 1/4 throttle, and then it gets a bit leanish just after this until it comes into the powerjet and pulls really well through the top. Its not massively lean, but there is some room for improvement. Going richer on the rod, it makes things a bit better at the mid, but degrades performance off the bottom. More burbling around 1/8th that doesn't clear up as soon. Less snap in the lower.. More smoke at idle and won't idle as well (even after compensating with idle screw). Its the money spot for me. My thoughts were to run a 3-0 rod, at the richer length. Ideally I should be able to find the similar response off the bottom with this, and the extra richness across the board should fill in the slight leaness at mid range, and possible allow me to bring the powe jet a bit leaner again, as I've currently gone a bit richer on the powerjet to try and compensate some fuel around 1/2 throttle too.

 

[Jakobi]

From APT in Pumpkintalkthread

Jakobi, thanks for your upfront posting, I don't think anyone here would expect anything less. I believe most of what you are experiencing is normal break in and gaining some familiarity. It also sounds like you are proceeding methodically with some caution so a good thing.

When starting the slide must be in a low idle setting, so if initial clicker settings from the day before were too rich it may have netted you a higher than necessary idle setting and could have caused hard starting the next time. Also be sure not to roll the throttle while kicking as this too opens up the cutaway and diminishes the signal while trying to start (unless you know it's flooded then hold wide open). Usually one good fast kick without touching anything get the job done.

Check to make sure the choke plunger is tight, remove the o ring if you prefer and tighten. This can cause some erratic low speed running. It's a result of a missed (I missed it) machined feature to gland the o ring and seat the brass on the carb body. Not often an issue but seems to be showing up a little more frequently. A running change order has been submitted and will be on future carbs.

The metering rod and nozzle need a little time to run in, some of the off idle hesitation and going from rich to lean is caused by tightness between the new rod and nozzle. The aperture size in the low settings is very small and the metering rod can "pinch" the fuel flow momentarily during roll on (tip in) until clearances wear in.

Usually several rides is all it takes. Of course the natural reaction is to start tuning on it, and that's OK but you usually wind up going back to closer to as sent settings once everything frees up and takes a set. This same running in is helpful to the fuel inlet needle and seat as well. So give it a little time.

 

[Jakobi]

I rode it again this afternoon. I'm really disappointed with it at this stage in time. The idle is great, its as good as any other carb I've used. It started on the second kick today choke on, and after about 20 seconds dropped some revs and I pulled it off choke. Pretty standard behaviour there.

The bike is still showing characteristics of being too rich immediately off idle, followed by a lean hole after that. Basically I'm getting excessive 4 stroking at part throttle and during roll on, but with the current setting it pulls acceptably at 1/4 throttle. The 4 stroking to clean transition isn't really what I'd consider a smooth delivery either. Going 1 click leaner to reduce the burble does seem to improve it a touch, however as soon as I put a load on the engine it falls flat and needs to be clutched to stay alive, otherwise it will stall.

I know this feeling well, as I've been there with the Lectron while feeling out for the best possible setting, but the Lectron offers a cleaner off idle, and torquier low - mid throttle response. I've also experienced it with needle diameters on the PWK. 110% this feels like I'm running 2 sizes too rich on a pilot, with 2 sizes too lean on the diameter, and the air screw open 3 turns. The richness is only right off the bottom, but enough to annoy me.

Like one of the previous posters said, there is a definite and very noticable drop in torque between 1/8th and 1/4 throttle if you try to clean up the bottom end too much. In my case, this is happening well and truly before the bottom is anything but clean.

Above 1/4 throttle everything is great, but most of my preferred riding is single track, where throttle application is generally in the lower 1/4 with the occassional crack open when the trees clear.

Perhaps it will break in after a while, and allow some more fuel at 1/8th - 1/4 throttle. If thats the case I'll try and lean it off an clean up the bottom end again. Until then I'm going to ride it as is and deal with the poor delivery.

 

[singletracker]

I've never regretted buying the Lectron. It's been the best mod I've made to my bike aside from suspension, and a close second at that. If I would have questioned my decision to not wait for the SC, I would feel reassured now.

Thanks for the reviews. I'm looking forward to hearing more.

 

[Jakobi]

It may just be an 'Australia' thing ST... It may be a break in procedure thing too. It may be the case that APT need to supply an alternate metering rod for this country.. Not sure... but not really happy with how its performed yet.. I'll give it a few more hours and see what happens.

 

[nambo-trev]

I'm interested to see if it gets better with a little more time on it. If it was equal too the lectron at least, the apt would have the advantage in simplicity of adjustment(one thing about lectron I don't care for is taking out the bolts and turning carb everytime I want to adjust pilot circuit. No biggie just being nit picky) but if you can't clean up 1/4 throttle response to damn near perfect that's a deal breaker for me too as most of my riding is tight single track as well with 1/4 throttle being the most utilized

 

[singletracker]

Fair enough. Certainly external only adjustments is a benefit over the Lectron, but I don't see the need to make adjustments often. Therefore, the performance and fit is what I'm most concerned about. If I was going to purchase one or the other right now I would be anxiously awaiting more long term reports about the APT. Luckily for me, I've had the Lectron since last December, so I've been enjoying it for several months now. I definitely don't see the need to swap it out for an APT based on my own experience with the Lectron and reports that I've been reading about the APT.

 

[nambo-trev]

I agree with you 100% I am enjoying my lectron as well and feel no need for the apt right now either unless there is more long term benefits I'm just not seeing right now

 

[GMP]

No offense here, but Jake being the largest contributor to this forum is also the one thats on the edge of the map with settings, so please consider this. Sure, the fuel is different, and so are preferences. I would not sweat this until some North American results back it up. Girard has a very early billet, made a couple clicks and never looked back, and he has been riding GGs longer than me. Trevor, if your like me, and most guys that climb hard in more moderate climates with North American fuel, you know that being a hair rich off the bottom is a good thing on a 250, because thats where the torque is from. I could care less what it does on an easy or fast trail as I'm not at off idle anyway.

 

[nambo-trev]

I too agree with that Glenn and was the reason why I haven't made any real judgements here more observations on what I've read regarding both. I'm perfectly happy with mine but am still going to buy the apt to compare which one I prefer. I'm selling my bike shortly and which ever one I'm most pleased with ill keep and let the other go with the bike. Who knows, if jakes not happy in the end maybe I'll end up with his

 

[Motosportz]

Good info above.

Ando, I'm running a brand new, correctly gapped, NGK BR8EG. Typically I'd just run the ES but went all out with the rebuild. Glad to know someone else is experiencing a similar thing though.. Not so good for the carb.

Kelly.. you love stirring the pot

In regards to what I had tried with the Lectron everything was with the 3-1 rod. I have a 3-2 here but decided it would be working in the wrong direction, and was waiting on a 3-0 and 4-0 but was an issue with shipping so haven't had the chance to play.

The real issue here is that everyone groups the bottom and mid into the same basket. IMO they have always been at minimum 2 circuits (but on a PWK more like slide, needle diameter, pilot, air screw, and needle taper). Thinking in terms of an indexed throttle we have closed, 1/8th, 1/4, 1/2 throttle. I'd consider closed to be the idle, 1/8th to 1/4 bottom end, 1/4 to 1/2 mid.. and basically everything above to be mid to top.

With the 3-1 metering rod, at my current setting of 50.25mm I have a very nice idle, some slight burble up to 1/8th which I consider essential, clean strong torquey power delivery up to and maybe just past 1/4 throttle, and then it gets a bit leanish just after this until it comes into the powerjet and pulls really well through the top. Its not massively lean, but there is some room for improvement. Going richer on the rod, it makes things a bit better at the mid, but degrades performance off the bottom. More burbling around 1/8th that doesn't clear up as soon. Less snap in the lower.. More smoke at idle and won't idle as well (even after compensating with idle screw). Its the money spot for me. My thoughts were to run a 3-0 rod, at the richer length. Ideally I should be able to find the similar response off the bottom with this, and the extra richness across the board should fill in the slight leaness at mid range, and possible allow me to bring the powe jet a bit leaner again, as I've currently gone a bit richer on the powerjet to try and compensate some fuel around 1/2 throttle too.

Nice work, sounds like you know what you're doing and want to accomplish. Hope you get to try the other rods.

 

[Motosportz]

And for the record I had non of those issues with the Billet APT on my husky 125/165. Ran good. I was not going to spend $800 on a carb and Lectron was super accommodating and willing to bend over backwards and had a long history and huge selection of rods. I knew I wanted a metering rod carb after trying the APT and the Lectron just was a much better solution for me at this time. The Lectron got my 90% perfection right out of the box. A worked on it from several angles, came up with my own rod specs and PJ tube specs and not it is 100% perfect for me and my bike. No bashing APT, that carb worked great for me too just found the solutions I was looking for in Lectron thats all.

 

[Darkside]

came up with my own rod specs and PJ tube specs

Sounds an awfully lot like jetting and worse. How are those of us that don't know, or want to know how to jet supposed to come up with rod specs.

 

[Jakobi]

No offense taken Glenn.

All true and valid comments. Preference is possibly the biggest variable of all. I am also in total agreeance that these engines produce the best torque when they have fuel available, and in my case with the Smart Carb I am not getting this. I am getting richness at idle, followed by a massive lean hole before 1/4 throttle. What this does is 1) burbles and hits as it clears, when trying to ride smoothly at smaller openings.. and more concerning is 2) falls flat on its face when trying to click up another gear to use the torque. Its just not there and I need to either shift back a gear and deal with the on/off delivery or clutch the crap out of it to bring it back into fuel.

I've been told by a few people it might take several rides before the parts lap together and tolerances are achieved, so I'm going to do just that. Its not a negative review on the SC. There are many happy reviews on ktmtalk, some which have taken some time to get perfect too.

 

[Motosportz]

Sounds an awfully lot like jetting and worse. How are those of us that don't know, or want to know how to jet supposed to come up with rod specs.

Nope. Carb worked great as is, far better than a standard jetted carb for me but wanted to get that last 5% out of it and make it perfect. The PJ tube is a very inexpensive available part and all it does is change where the PJ affects the power in the throttle. For me on my bike the PJ tube was to long and over ran the mid range. The shorter tube which is like $5 and takes 2 minutes to swap out moved the PJ up the rev range and cleared the "issue" Simple. Required? No, works better, yes. As for the custom rod that too was not "necessary" but for those running to much PJ to get the top end back all it does is make the top end of the Rod richer and then you have to run less PJ. So I took the time to sort out the last 5% of a great thing and now feel it is function 100%, as in perfect for me. I am simply providing this info so if you have a Lectron or want one you will understand the tuning better and realize there are available parts to tune it for your needs. These can all be purchased via Lectron directly. Basically simple tweaks to make a great thing better IMHO.

 

[Jakobi]

Basically simple tweaks to make a great thing better IMHO.

And that is the purpose of this thread.

I have nothing to gain, and nothing to lose from what I post, so you could call it unbiased. I personally, had what I would consider as close to perfect as you could get with the Keihin. The only real life issue was the amount of time invested to establish the baseline.

For pure simplicity, the Lectron takes the cake. A couple small issues with cabling (which has been identified and resolved), and other than having to remove the carb cap a couple times to make adjustment it has been in the ballpark. As Kelly says.. it gets you 90% perfection easily. For many this is probably enough. For nutjobs like Kelly and myself, we will always find something that could be improved on.

I still don't want to bag out on the Smart Carb yet. But this break in procedure isn't much fun. Who wants to spend $425 on a product that you pre ordered 6 months ago, then spend another $375 to get a billet because they are meant to be the best, only to find that once you have it installed you still have to wait before it will perform as advertised.. Am I sick of waiting?? maybe....

 

[Motosportz]

I'm not understanding what would need to break in on a carb? the APT I tried was used but John said it worked fantastic from the get go. Worked fine on my bikes and I think one more guy tried it. Confused about this.

 

[Jakobi]

As posted by Corey..

The metering rod and nozzle need a little time to run in, some of the off idle hesitation and going from rich to lean is caused by tightness between the new rod and nozzle. The aperture size in the low settings is very small and the metering rod can "pinch" the fuel flow momentarily during roll on (tip in) until clearances wear in.

Usually several rides is all it takes. Of course the natural reaction is to start tuning on it, and that's OK but you usually wind up going back to closer to as sent settings once everything frees up and takes a set. This same running in is helpful to the fuel inlet needle and seat as well. So give it a little time.