Future GG - what would you specify ?
- Thread starter Caravan Monster
- Start date
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
To EVERYONE!
savage sausage
New member
Yes fuel injection systems can be re-mapped , Just as ignition can be remapped
(I.e. Mapped for less fuel or mapped for more fuel or mapped for a agressive power hit or mapped for a mild power hit)
Direct injection is an iinjector firing straight into the cylinder/cranksase which is controlled by a microprossesor.
Carburettor floats are a moving part
Throttle slides are a moving part
Choke plunger is a moving part
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Got it and thanks. I do have a little bit of knowledge about DI
and also have very strong opinions as to why this brand and its dealer network is a long way from being ready for it. Maybe someday, in the meantime it never hurts to dream! Great feedback Savage.
Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
I got ready to give 172 reasons why GG isn't ready for DI...but your comment says enough
I got ready to give 172 reasons why GG isn't ready for DI...but your comment says enough
Direct injection has been around for 100 years.
Predominate fuel system in HO aviation engines of WW2.
Why are we not ready?
Gasgasman-
Are you saying that you see more problems in the 90s-2000s in regard to fuel delivery efficiency and dependablity of DI compared to carburated systems that came before it??
Is this what you are saying??
nknudsen
Member
Mechanical vs electronic, the modern electronic gas DI (not EFI) is a fairly new system. I don't think you would want mechanical DI hung on your bike vs a carb.
hadfield4wd
New member
Been doing it in boats for years!
nknudsen
Member
And Ski Doo 2T sleds DI since 09'.
Sleds and boats tend to run at fairly steady throttle and don't have to deal with dirt, mud and water like dirtbikes do. They also have more space.
Dirtbike throttles are all over the place......, horrible conditions and very limited room.
Don't get me wrong, I was/am a big proponent of DI.
Smart Carbs promise to do almost all that for very little $$ and incredible simplicity.
I like the thought of a servo controlled power valve. It can be optimized over a very broad range and easily tuned for various conditions. The Serco's have them, I just don't know if they fulfill the promisor not. I think the 4 strokes have shown the advantages of long power (Not that I have ever owned one)
)Rod Overstreet
Platinum Level Site Supporter
Sure has....
"Evinrude outboards produce two-stroke direct-injected engines ranging from 25 hp (19 kW) to a 3.4L V6 300 hp. They used carburetors until the late 1990s, when EPA Clean air regulations mandated new technologies. OMC partnered with FICHT, of Germany to introduce Direct Injection. Unsurpassed Durability testing took place, and Production Started prior to another round of EPA Regulations. Modifications were made at that point to bring the motors up to standards. these modifications were not carefully engineered and designed and caused powerhead failure and even a recall on the motors. The losses on these motors, the loss of reputation and the surge of competition from Japan and Mercury, pushed the company into Bankruptcy in 2000.
Simply....we have much more important issues at hand, than DI. Maybe some day!
JP4
New member
I like the thought of a servo controlled power valve. It can be optimized over a very broad range and easily tuned for various conditions. The Serco's have them, I just don't know if they fulfill the promisor not. I think the 4 strokes have shown the advantages of long power (Not that I have ever owned one
I have a Sherco with the servo controlled power valve. The map switch on the bike affects both the ignition timing and the opening of the power valve. When the bike is powered up (not running) and you cycle the map switch you can hear it adjust the PV. By controlling both the timing and PV the map switch makes a huge difference. I never noticed much difference on other bikes with a map switch, but on the Sherco it's night and day. The aggressive setting is pretty much what you expect from a 300 2-t. The soft map totally tames things down. Perfect for slimey stuff or super technical nasties. One guy describes it as the '200' switch, and that seems pretty accurate.
Sherco has announced that its 2017 2-ts will be fuel injected (unclear what manner at this time) to meet Euro 4 emissions standards. I'm not interested in the complexity and expense of FI. That was part of my decision to purchase a 2016.
As far as GG goes they need to way up their game when it comes to quality control. The and fit and finish of the Sherco is head and shoulders above what I've seen on Gassers. This is a no brainer, as QC doesn't cost much, it's just implementing rigorous oversight controls throughout the production process.
hadfield4wd
New member
Data says otherwise.
What I hear from everyone who rides a Gas Gas for the first time is "Man that thing feels so "planted" over the rocks and roots".
They don't realize a couple of extra pounds is the partial reason for that, so I just smile and nod.
Lighter weight. That?s an area GG needs to focus. Doesn?t matter how it feels to us. People will not buy it based on some specs and reviews. All that to say the GG2015 did not get good reviews based on the competition. The biggest complaint was that it was heavy. Well we all know that compared to other bikes of that year. I?m sure my ?99 is heavier.
I have gone rounds with my friends about weight. To the point that we stopped talking out of our butts and actually bought a scale. It happens to be in NY right now, but we weigh all our bikes on the same scale for consistency sake. And we weigh them full of fuel, because I find it hard to ride my bike when there isn?t any fuel. So when I get up there I?ll weigh my bike.
For the purpose of this discussion I?ll use the stats from the Dirt Bike Magazine. Even though I don?t necessarily trust them. These are the weights for the 2015?s, wet no fuel.
GG EC300 ? 254lbs
Beta 300RR ? 235lbs
KTM 300XC ? 227lbs
http://dirtbikemagazine.com/home-features/two-stroke-power-gas-gas-ec300-test
http://dirtbikemagazine.com/home-features/beta-300rr-two-stroke-test
http://dirtbikemagazine.com/home-features/is-this-the-ultimate-2-stroke-ktm-300xc-test
OK so we all know weight doesn?t tell the whole story, but it is certainly a factor. There are a lot of people that simply will not buy a bike that is 19lbs heavier than the competition. That?s big difference. Doesn?t make it right. So that?s uninformed consumers. So there are 2 schools of thought. GG is a boutique brand. Maybe they just don?t want that buyer. Maybe they want to convert that person. Maybe they don?t want to the thrown into the spotlight like beta has in the last year. Beta has it?s own shortcomings, as does KTM. It?s what the business plan that is from corporate that matters. And Rod is the one that can put that in place in NA.
So how does GG sell the 2016 models that come to the US?
How do they sell the 2017?
Who is your target market?
Do they want to grow like Beta did and is doing? Would that growth affect quality?
Are they happy and profitable (that is the key here) being the boutique company?
Once that is known, then a Marketing plan needs to be in place. And some ideas for that were discussed in another thread here. (http://www.gasgasrider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20533)
hadfield4wd
New member
So you would leave OK and live in Spain???
I would leave VA for Spain. Too bad I only speak English.
memphis2857
New member
You say data says otherwise? My numbers came straight from my scales here at home. Both bikes with fuel and ready to ride.
Unfortunately, to the fault of dealerships/manufacturers, most of the time the only thing you have to go on when buying a new bike is a magazine article and a spec sheet. When both of those are not friendly to a machine it is hard to make yourself buy one. This is why KTM has done so well. Their advertised weights are without fuel and they clearly state that but people overlook it and, they are heavily favored by magazines. Also they have a demo program that travels all over the place and is at one event or another every weekend. That is why Rod has pushed so hard for a national demo program, he knows it works!
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hadfield4wd
New member
Highlighted the portion I was disputing. I don't dispute your actual weights. Theorhetically if the 2015 without fuel is 254 then add 2.5 gallons of fuel at 6lbs each you get 269. Then add handguards skids pipe guards etc.
I agree 100%. I wonder if you coudl do a dealer demo day. Ride all the bikes in one day. KTM, GG, Beta, Sherco, Husky even the new yamaha YZ250X
One day I will build a 200lb trail bike. Just for fun.
memphis2857
New member
I would like to see a 15 on the scales. Just putting it up on the stand it was lighter "feeling" than my 11. Riding it felt about the same
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